The Suicide Or Murder Thread.

[Junk Bond Sam]

Ok here's the thing with this whole suicide muder scenario. I really hope Elliott was murdered instead of his demise being a suicide.. For the reason being suicide is very cruel to the family and loved ones left behind, it is also a very selfish and weak thing to do. It's similar with my view of Kurt Cobain I just cant see someone being so selfish that they cant take the pain in life so they off themselves, leaving behind a young daughter to carry the pain of having a father father that killed himself for the rest of her life. I mean at least if you truly love your family fight through the pain and be selfless for your family, that's in my deffenition true courage...

[Kazimierz]

Surely if he was murdered it's still cruel, espcially to Chiba. I think more of a cruel thought personally.

Also, do you think Elliott viewed himself as courageous and a hero?

Sure we can all love him and his music, but I don't think he did.

[Cool As Ice Cream]

Great idea for a thread. :yes:

Someone had to do it.

[Dead Pilot]

Fuck off.

[boy-in-blue]

Great idea for a thread. :yes:

Someone had to do it.

Has no one done it before???? that's incredible if it's true.

[TheKeenGuy]

The evidence was, and will remain, inconclusive. We'll never know.

I prefer not to think about it.

[boy-in-blue]

The evidence was, and will remain, inconclusive. We'll never know.

I prefer not to think about it.

So there is not an ongoing investigation? Is there not enough evidence for murder or what?

[Junk Bond Sam]

Surely if he was murdered it's still cruel, espcially to Chiba. I think more of a cruel thought personally.

Also, do you think Elliott viewed himself as courageous and a hero?

Sure we can all love him and his music, but I don't think he did.

Yes if he's murdered it's still cruel and sad but the suicide thing is like a big fuck you to all the people that love you and would do anything to help you and be there for you.. If you;re murdered at least you didnt give up on your family and you didnt leave them by choice.

[Dead Pilot]

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAArrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr rrrrgggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggghhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!


Go to the hell section of Blamonet and find the 50 basillion other threads about this. Seriously.

I'm emailing Charlie.

[Kazimierz]

Whatever the case, we're not gonna get any new recordings.

Also, whatever the case I think Elliott's at peace and would rather we just enjoyed his music

[TheKeenGuy]

So there is not an ongoing investigation? Is there not enough evidence for murder or what?
The results leave the possibility for either suicide or murder, without being able to prove either. The case remains open, but it is exceedingly unlikely that there will ever be a new revelation.

[Dead Pilot]

Yes if he's murdered it's still cruel and sad but the suicide thing is like a big fuck you to all the people that love you and would do anything to help you and be there for you.. If you;re murdered at least you didnt give up on your family and you didnt leave them by choice.

I don't think any suicidal person in there right mind is thinking clearly when they suicide. They just want everything (the pain) to stop, and that seems the only way out. Just read a psych 101 book or something.

See? Now Im posing proper in this thread. Fucken hell.

[recordrunning]

LOL

[Saltandgin]

But if you're that depressed, your thought making process is fucked up. I think most people who do the deed, genuinly think they are making their family's and friend's lives better by them NOT being around.

I can't speak for the dead, but I reckon 'Fuck you' is the complete oposite of what is on their mind..

[Jay]

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAArrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr rrrrgggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggghhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!


Go to the hell section of Blamonet and find the 50 basillion other threads about this. Seriously.

I'm emailing Charlie.

you gonna go tell? it is a fair and honest question which can be handled maturely like adults. I have been a fan for 10 years - I should be able to discuss his death if I desire with other fans.

as for suicide - my opinion of it changed last year when a good friend killed himself. opened my eyes to the fact that it is mental illness and the urge to do it is often uncontrollable. my friend was really good looking, dated lots of girls, made lots of money, and loved to hang with friends. he hid his illness and his pain. i think there are a lot of unanswered questions of what happened that night, but no mater what did happen, I think elliott would have done it eventually. his death saddened me, but did not surprise me at all - nor should it for people who know his background and numerous bouts of depressions

[Junk Bond Sam]

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAArrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr rrrrgggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggghhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!


Go to the hell section of Blamonet and find the 50 basillion other threads about this. Seriously.

I'm emailing Charlie.

So you're gonna be little tattle tale huh?

Anyway this thread is not about did he committ suicide or was he murdered. It's about the selfishness of suicide, and that I hope elliott was murdered because I think he was stronger than that of killing himself.

[Dead Pilot]

Well then Jay, go visit the Blamonet hell, and post in the all the suicide threads there. I'm in no way saying that people can't discuss this,. merely that there are places for this and I for one don't want to see another 100 threads every day going "Omgz was it suicide? Zomg look at the cut marks, he was murdered by little Bo Peep" every time I come online.

I have some respect for his family and friends who actually read this site.

[Clara]

And we're in hell.

[Jay]

Well then Jay, go visit the Blamonet hell, and post in the all the suicide threads there. I'm in no way saying that people can't discuss this,. merely that there are places for this and I for one don't want to see another 100 threads every day going "Omgz was it suicide? Zomg look at the cut marks, he was murdered by little Bo Peep" every time I come online.

I have some respect for his family and friends who actually read this site.

then don;t open the thread - exercise your own discretion without trying to control what others do. this isn't your little playground - be an adult. if there was some bullshit in there or being out of line - fine. but i have been coming here a lot longer than you and i have never seen this discussed - not once

[Dead Pilot]

You still don't understand Jay. Imagine being a member of his family and seeing shit like this. It would make me pretty upset. Im not being a petulant kid about this, go to the Picture of Elliott and Jennifer thread - someone posted a whole list of like 5 links about suicide/muder of elliott.

[defubar]

People kill themselves for many reasons. Labeling suicide itself as a mental illness is naive or just plain ignorant. Many people with mental illnesses commit suicide, but there are many other reasons. Shame, pain, escaping punishment, religion or just not wanting to deal with what ever is going on in the particular person's life.

[Eva]

I think you're missing dead pilot's point. It's not so much about you and what you want to see/disscuss, it's about showing a little consideration for Elliott's family and friends. How about throwing in a little respect for Elliott himself, who (I think it's pretty safe for me to assume) valued his privacy and right to a private life free from public scrutiny.

I think all of you who are so quick to whine about your rights to discuss certain issues need to remember you place as mere fans. Sure you have the freedom to say what you wish, but for fucks sake put your morbid curiosities aside and stop to consider if it's morally right to be doing so. Why is that so hard to understand?

[days_between]

:yes: :yes:
two thumbs up for originality:nonono:

[Jay]

You still don't understand Jay. Imagine being a member of his family and seeing shit like this. It would make me pretty upset. Im not being a petulant kid about this, go to the Picture of Elliott and Jennifer thread - someone posted a whole list of like 5 links about suicide/muder of elliott.

do me a favor and don;t tell me what i do or do not understand. sorry - but he died in a horribly violent way - i think his family is painfully aware of that. on the off-chance that once a year someone sticks their head in here should not affect what i am allowed to discuss. in fact, i think you are being exactly like a petulant kid. YOU don't like something, so you want to take your ball and go home. you don;t have to be the protective of his family - they don;t need your help

[Jay]

I think you're missing dead pilot's point. It's not so much about you and what you want to see/disscuss, it's about showing a little consideration for Elliott's family and friends. How about throwing in a little respect for Elliott himself, who (I think it's pretty safe for me to assume) valued his privacy and right to a private life free from public scrutiny.

I think all of you who are so quick to whine about your rights to discuss certain issues need to remember you place as mere fans. Sure you have the freedom to say what you wish, but for fucks sake put your morbid curiosities aside and stop to consider if it's morally right to be doing so. Why is that so hard to understand?

it is not morbid curiosity - it is an adult, frank discussion with fans who love him as much as I do. we can have 50 threads that talk about everything in the man's life, but not about his death? li have been coming here for 7 years - don't lecture me about having respect for the man

[Junk Bond Sam]

it is not morbid curiosity - it is an adult, frank discussion with fans who love him as much as I do. we can have 50 threads that talk about everything in the man's life, but not about his death? li have been coming here for 7 years - don't lecture me about having respect for the man

I know it's like any time you bring something up about Elliott that is in the "off limits section" of the unwritten sweet addy rulebook, people will try to attack your common decency as a person. They try to look down upon you and try to make you out as this person with a morbid obbsesion with elliotts death. Its really pretentiously obnoxious.

[carrot metaphors]

this

is

getting

so

old

[llaurens]

it's about showing a little consideration for Elliott's family and friends.

I have seen this argument over and over,... but frankly, do you really think Elliott's family is watching a fan message board every single day?

I would not talk for the family but it may be comforting for them to see that other people are asking themselves the same question.
Imagine how awful it must be for them not to know what happened, if it is still the case.

[sombre winds]

I think you're missing dead pilot's point. It's not so much about you and what you want to see/disscuss, it's about showing a little consideration for Elliott's family and friends. How about throwing in a little respect for Elliott himself, who (I think it's pretty safe for me to assume) valued his privacy and right to a private life free from public scrutiny.

I think all of you who are so quick to whine about your rights to discuss certain issues need to remember you place as mere fans. Sure you have the freedom to say what you wish, but for fucks sake put your morbid curiosities aside and stop to consider if it's morally right to be doing so. Why is that so hard to understand?

I'm going to be blunt in my usual way.
1. This board has been disrespecting the family since Elliott died by refusing to have this discussion. All they end up with reading here is the repeated belief that Elliott killed himself. That may be reassuring to Jennifer Chiba but I'm sure it is hurtful to the family to see that fans have decided to "accuse" Elliott of self murder when even the coroner couldn't. Some of you believe that Elliott's suicide was inevitable. Suicide is NEVER inevitable. No matter how long someone has been depressed.

2. Elliott's privacy was violated by the Spin article that discussed deeply private issues. There has been a very public forum for the presentation of Elliott's death as suicide and that was the Spin article in which Jennifer Chiba had the opportunity to present her point of view. There has been no forum for the discussion of the other side since any discussion ends up upsetting people or ending in hell. Fans eagerly read the Spin article but get upset at any discussion of possible murder here. None of us will ever know what happened but there has been a "case" made for suicide. A discussion of both sides is really never allowed here. Yes there are hundreds of threads and they all end up being upsetting to people on the board and ending up midstream in hell where no one can find them.

I have no idea what happened that day. None of us do. Some of you appear to understand suicide and depression and assume that was inevitable for Elliott. It wasn't. Something happened on that day that led to Elliott's death. Something happened in the heat of an argument that led to a knife repeatedly stabbed into Elliott's heart. We don't and can't know whether he held the knife or someone else.

But Elliott's privacy had been exposed by people who supposedly loved him. It's just not ok to talk about any aspects of what has been so publicly presented to the country.
For some of us this isn't about curiosity. And it is morally right to me even if others don't agree.

[Jay]

this

is

getting

so

old


well, you are certaintly entitled to your opinion. you can always use your 26th post to comment elsewhere and leave us to freely discuss what we like

[Cool As Ice Cream]

I'm emailing Charlie.

Crybaby. Why don't you go crying in a corner?

[Jackal]

Maybe Elliott killed himself because he thought he was a big disappointment to his family. Perhaps it was his family and friends that just didn't show they cared enough. So he felt there was no other logical conclusion, and no one would even care anyway.

[quixote]

he had no plans that day

[Junk Bond Sam]

Maybe Elliott killed himself because he thought he was a big disappointment to his family. Perhaps it was his family and friends that just didn't show they cared enough. So he felt there was no other logical conclusion, and no one would even care anyway.

That's even worse, to blame killing yourself on that fact that you dont think people care about you..Elliott had plenty of people who cared about him, from friends, to family, to fans that came to the shows, to a girlfriend.. If he killed himself I think it was all part of his plan. To make this beautiful music and sacrafice life for the sake of artistic legend.. We all know how death creates legends.. Jimi Hendrix, Kurt Cobain, Van Gogh, John LEnnon.

[recordrunning]

If he killed himself I think it was all part of his plan. To make this beautiful music and sacrafice life for the sake of artistic legend.

I'm sorry, I really wanted to stay out of this, but that is a horrible thing to suggest!
I REFUSE to buy into this idea that Elliott killed himself in vain attempt to gain cult status (and yes, I realize that's not exactly what you said, but I have seen this argument made more than once by other people).
There's a big difference between having people who care about you and feeling like you have people who care about you. There is absolutely no way to know how he felt at that time, and I think it's in extremely bad taste to say that he killed himself for the sake of his career, just because you can't understand how he might feel that way; due to having a large group of family, friends, and fans who loved him. You really never know.

And I mean, honestly... does ANYONE find this appropriate?

http://i15.tinypic.com/2yvvxqt.jpg

I didn't think so.

[sombre winds]

And people think that saying Elliott committed suicide is somehow less offensive than suggesting murder.
Elliott would have had to have been truly insane to stab himself in the heart for some kind of aesthetic ideal.

Why not something simple and borne out by the facts- facts about what happened and facts about suicide. In the midst of a horrible fight, something is said to Elliott that is intolerable and he stabs himself. People don't kill themselves because their family isn't proud of them or because they want fame after they die. They kill themselves because in that moment in time they are in pain and feel completely alone and a burden to others. It doesn't matter what was going to happen the next week or year or what had happened in childhood. It was what happened that moment in time. Period. Even people who plan suicide complete it because of whatever is happening at a specific moment. Many more people plan suicide than complete it.

[Jackal]

That's not all true. People don't spontaneously commit suicide on a whim, they could, but they would be an oddity. Maybe he didn't plan to die that day and that fight was too much for him, but he seemed like he wanted to die before that day. (from what I've read on here, he's tried it before, right?) People kill themselves all the time because they feel like a loser that let down the ones that love them. You said, "a burden to others", doesn't that mean the same thing.

I do agree that they fail to see a bright future ahead, but I'm pretty sure the past, (even recent past) plays an important role. That's where they gather the info that brings them down to the point of no return.

Killing ones self to become a cult hero seems like the least probable idea ever. I doubt any of those people were thinking of their careers when they died.

[Cool As Ice Cream]

And I mean, honestly... does ANYONE find this appropriate?

http://i15.tinypic.com/2yvvxqt.jpg

I didn't think so.

Made me laugh.

[llaurens]

you know you can find about anything on the wall, some of the things are completely irrelevant... many different opinions are represented. For example someone wrote "I know you didn't do it"

There were even many sentences written a while ago that are now erased, probably because they were directly accusing someone :\

Also, everything points to an act done in the heat of the moment as it has been said many times, it doesn't make sense to suggest a suicide or a murder was planned. The method (very rarely used to commit suicide by the way) does not indicate a planned act

[sombre winds]

That's not all true. People don't spontaneously commit suicide on a whim, they could, but they would be an oddity. Maybe he didn't plan to die that day and that fight was too much for him, but he seemed like he wanted to die before that day. (from what I've read on here, he's tried it before, right?) People kill themselves all the time because they feel like a loser that let down the ones that love them. You said, "a burden to others", doesn't that mean the same thing.

I do agree that they fail to see a bright future ahead, but I'm pretty sure the past, (even recent past) plays an important role. That's where they gather the info that brings them down to the point of no return.

Killing ones self to become a cult hero seems like the least probable idea ever. I doubt any of those people were thinking of their careers when they died.

Actually, what I wrote is accurate. I don't mean that people can't be chronically suicidal. Nor was I describing a "whim". Suicide is preventable because even when someone feels suicidal it takes a certain state of mind- that is usually very brief- to actually commit the act. The point of no return is usually an event that happens within a day or two of the suicide. Kind of like the straw that breaks the camels back. Even then, that point can be changed. Whatever triggered Elliott- if he killed himself- was something immediate. This isn't my conjecture- this is what the field of suicidology says. Someone who is determined to kill themselves over a period of time so that even when hospitalized for a few days they are still determined is far more rare.

Whatever he tried before was under the influence of drugs or alcohol which is a completely different thing. Plus, they were spur of the moment and in the face of some loss related to a girlfriend. Elliott was sober when this happened.

[Jackal]

OK. That's probably right. Murdering yourself in a fit of rage and emotion seems equal to murdering someone else in the same circumstance.

If you behave a certain way while under the influence I think it's because those thought are with you anyway. Drugs/alcohol just lets you do what you want, like a free pass, they don't make you do things you've never considered.

[sombre winds]

OK. That's probably right. Murdering yourself in a fit of rage and emotion seems equal to murdering someone else in the same circumstance.

If you behave a certain way while under the influence I think it's because those thought are with you anyway. Drugs/alcohol just lets you do what you want, like a free pass, they don't make you do things you've never considered.

True. But majority of people have considered suicide at some point although not to the point of doing something about it. What was probably the most serious attempt was the one where he jumped off a small cliff. He wasn't even thinking about killing himself but was drunk and running and just didn't care. If suicide more passive than active.

[llaurens]

So they have finally deleted that Chiba's picture thread on the Elliott board!?! :grump:

[recordrunning]

Made me laugh.

Err... I believe the proper response would be disgust?

[Cool As Ice Cream]

No disgust here. The comment is indeed inappropriate. But it is so out of place that it becomes funny to me.

[llaurens]

This picture was taken not very long before he died, the last time I saw him, in august 2003.
He was really in great shape that day,... the picture speaks by itself

[sombre winds]

This picture was taken not very long before he died, the last time I saw him, in august 2003.
He was really in great shape that day,... the picture speaks by itself

If you can, post this on the main board. Its a great pic.

[pointyjess]

I wish we could find out the truth or make peace with not knowing.

[Junk Bond Sam]

This picture was taken not very long before he died, the last time I saw him, in august 2003.
He was really in great shape that day,... the picture speaks by itself

I picture him playing splittsville with this guitar..

[sombre winds]

I wish we could find out the truth or make peace with not knowing.

We can't find out the truth. I think that making peace requires people to accept that we don't know. The problem is that many people have decided that Elliott committed suicide and get angry or frustrated when someone brings up the other possibility. The fact is that either are possible and that seems unacceptable to those who've decided on suicide.

[heavymetalmouthagain]

This picture was taken not very long before he died, the last time I saw him, in august 2003.
He was really in great shape that day,... the picture speaks by itself

is it just me or did he have a little pudge in this picture

[llaurens]

Elliott was far from being fat, but that was my point when I posted this picture: he looked very healthy last time I saw him.
I don't know, may be things changed rapidly between august and october, but that was not the vibe I got from this last show.
I'll try to post some of these pictures on the main board one day...

[Cool As Ice Cream]

This thread should be a poll and then we can let the people decide whether it was suicide or murder and then there would be no more discussion.

I vote suicide.

[Nak Nak]

He killed himself because his fans are so irritating.

[Cool As Ice Cream]

I can live with that. I wasn't a fan at the time.

Phew.

[Nak Nak]

All those Eliot Smith fans are directly responsible for his death, Bram. He must've woken up one morning and thought to himself:
"Damn, my fans are a bunch of annoying pussies, I think I'll stab myself to death tonight, maybe I'll get Jennifer to help me out and thus create a huge mystery that will keep those fucks out of the human race equation for a few hundred years. Hopefully no one figures me out before then."

[Cool As Ice Cream]

suicide vs. murder: 2 - 0

i think it's pretty clear now.

[Cool As Ice Cream]

it's still 2-0.

[Nak Nak]

4-0 now that we've posted about it twice, bram bro. We've scored a brace each.

[Cool As Ice Cream]

booya! :cool:

[some dude]

Ok here's the thing with this whole suicide muder scenario. I really hope Elliott was murdered instead of his demise being a suicide.. For the reason being suicide is very cruel to the family and loved ones left behind, it is also a very selfish and weak thing to do. It's similar with my view of Kurt Cobain I just cant see someone being so selfish that they cant take the pain in life so they off themselves, leaving behind a young daughter to carry the pain of having a father father that killed himself for the rest of her life. I mean at least if you truly love your family fight through the pain and be selfless for your family, that's in my deffenition true courage...

from your comments its obvious you don't understand suicide. elliott was mentally ill ... if he did commit suicide i'm sure he was not in his right mind at the moment. i remember him saying that he could never commit suicide because it would hurt his mother too much... the saddest part is after that he said that instead he was killing himself slowly with drugs and alcohol...

[llaurens]

from your comments its obvious you don't understand suicide. elliott was mentally ill ... if he did commit suicide i'm sure he was not in his right mind at the moment. i remember him saying that he could never commit suicide because it would hurt his mother too much... the saddest part is after that he said that instead he was killing himself slowly with drugs and alcohol...

Again (it has been said a hundred times) he was clean and had been clean for a year when he died, so he was not killing himself anymore even though he went through really horrible times before. Elliott was not mentally ill, you cannot say that... he was not thinking normally when he was under the influence of the numerous drugs he was taking at a certain point, but he was certainly not mentally ill.

[sombre winds]

Again (it has been said a hundred times) he was clean and had been clean for a year when he died, so he was not killing himself anymore even though he went through really horrible times before. Elliott was not mentally ill, you cannot say that... he was not thinking normally when he was under the influence of the numerous drugs he was taking at a certain point, but he was certainly not mentally ill.

Visiting old threads. This deserves a thumbs up.