Feminism!

[ramblingrose]

A gift to us ALL, yes, even you chaps. Discuss! preferably with booklists and such, but yes.

Carnal Knowledge by Susan Lees - this book WILL make you cross, and I suggest you read it with/over Against Our Will or similar olde rad rape text.

Backlash by Susan Faludi - this is just genius imo.

The Beauty Myth and Promiscuities by Naomi Wolfe - these should be essential reading for every girl once she's outgrown Judy Blume.

Righto, in order to stave off a "backlash" of my own, I suppose I should attempt to define my own personal feminism.

First up, I do not think that women>men, nor do I think men>women, I just think that people=people. Yes, I make the odd sweeping generalisation about males, and yes, I am just as susceptible to drooling over shoes and crying about being an old maid as the most servile and unreconstructed wench (the word "wench" I am using in a lighthearted manner and because it's a funny word, I expect to be beaten to death with a Dworkin-shaped mallet any time now for such flip), but we are conditioned so very hard by all this rubbish that it's impossible not to be affected by it.
Second, for me and my lovely white middle-class life, feminism is about being judged as a person on personal merits. I am a bit (well, a lot) shaky still on a few issues, because I think that there are differences between women and men and the way we are wired, generally (I SAID GENERALLY HEY DON'T GET CUNTY) speaking, for example women tend to be more governed by emotion rather than logic, even the logical ones, and vice versa. I have no answers but I think we should be working towards niceness and harmony rather than dissent and competition, because I'm a bit wet like that. Bear with me as this is going to be a series of posts and I'm a bit tired.

[ramblingrose]

The difficulty lies in finding a way to respect our differences without saying that logic>nurturing or motherhood>career or some bollocks. Unfortunately the concept of respecting each other's choices seems to have got a bit lost and women continue to be completely vicious about each other, which I believe is due, at least in part, to the "backlash" Faludi identifies, and the fact that whether you like it or not we still live in a patriarchal society to greater or lesser degree. The women of Blamo might be educated, successful, intelligent, all that, but this board proves that many of us are still insecure about the trimmings (yes I know this is an increasing pressure on men too and I don't fucking approve). I have never read a post that said "OMG BLAMO I WISH I HAD A FIRST-CLASS DEGREE" or "OMG BLAMO I FEEL LIKE I'LL NEVER WRITE THE GREAT AMERICAN NOVEL" but I've read (and written) plenty that said things like "OMG I'M SO FAT" or "I HAVE NINE FRECKLES AND I WISH I HAD SEVEN". It's a pointless waste of energy but it's so ingrained in our culture that I don't know how we can change.
yeah, anyway...
Worldwide, there are millions and millions of women and children suffering purely because they are female. Look at the plight of Afghan women, who may have enjoyed some freedoms recently but are still largely oppressed as fuck. Look at the orphanages full of baby girls in China. Look at all the women who suffer genital mutilation. In short, we personally may not be under the evil peniscosh of gender discrimination, but plenty of people are, and that's why it really fucks me off when people say we don't need feminism any more.

I was going to write a lot more, I haven't even started on economic or sexual issues, but I'm sure you'll all be very pleased that I can't be bothered just now as I've lost my thread a tiny bit.

[Kinbote]

You chicks are always looking for excuses not to bake me cakes.

[ramblingrose]

ah now, you see, I LIKE to bake cakes...I CAN'T WIN, DAMMIT.

[Herr Lipp]

Why do women have smaller feet than men?
So they can stand closer to the oven/sink.

Why do women get married in white?
Because it matched the kitchen appliances.

[elisabeth]

.

Righto, in order to stave off a "backlash" of my own, I suppose I should attempt to define my own personal feminism.



You don't have to with me.
:)
Feminists are motherfucking awesome. Oh, and they are mighty too.

I like saying it:
I'm a feminist.
I'm a feminist.
I'm a feminist.

Has a nice ring to it.
And when men say it....
that is just hot.
:beer:

[elisabeth]

Why do women have smaller feet than men?
So they can stand closer to the oven/sink.

Why do women get married in white?
Because it matched the kitchen appliances.


Dude, my mixer is, like, avocado colored.
That is not a good one for me.
I am not a goddamn spring, I tell you.

[Nak Nak]

So are you feminists or equalists?

[elisabeth]

Feminists = equalists, baby.
Don't believe the hype.
:-*

[The Tourist]

I think the reason lots of people are pissed off with feminism is because in some places it's gone too far. Instead of helping oppressed women the world over, it's turned into a "oh, give me £1000000 compensation cos I left my job because a man touched my shoulder". There are too many cases of shitty women playing the system. Not that I care about ze business world, but if women want to have the same responsibilities etc at work, then they have to realise that it's a male constructed environment... that doesn't mean that women should be subjected to sexism or harrassment, but that they should learn the rules and accept that not everything can be sorted out by legally homogenizing the roles men and women play... it just don't work, hence why there are 2 sexes... 3, if you count that specialist one.

Anyway, I don't want to get into it too much, but hopefully you lezza femidoms understood?! :D :O

[elisabeth]

It's all gonna work out jack.
You'll see.
Someday us chicks will get our due.
We just gotta wait for all the creepy hateful old men and uptight old ladies and all the other woman haters to DIE.
Until then though, I vomit forth my feminist dogma.
heh.

[Herr Lipp]

feminists are silly.

yo eliot did you know transexuals have a "neutralisation" card? They had to ask us at the Army recruitment office if we were a tranny and if we had said card.

[Herr Lipp]

women will never do anything of particular greatness other than breed. as they can't do that without men yet, then they should STFU and go and make me some lunch.

[Herr Lipp]

my wife, she is a pig.

[The Tourist]

did you have yours with you? :O

and no, I didn't know that. what toilets are they meant to use?
that rank sam-thing from big brother got escorted out of a ladies the other month, i guess he does have a penis despite his appearance.

[Nak Nak]

Feminists = equalists, baby.
Don't believe the hype.
:-*

I'm aware of the incorrect naming.

[Fab]

I do know that men -> women transexuals go to male prisons.

[elisabeth]

:-*

Feminists!
*points finger*

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3pdbnzFUsXI

[Herr Lipp]

did you have yours with you? :O

and no, I didn't know that. what toilets are they meant to use?
that rank sam-thing from big brother got escorted out of a ladies the other month, i guess he does have a penis despite his appearance.

he's just a 'vestite, not a 'sexual innit. he gives me nightmares.

frank, i didnt think there's been a tranny criminal.

[The Tourist]

just the surgeons who create them. :O
nah, I do feel sorry for people who feel so wrong that they go to those lengths to change themselves. must be very shitey.

[Herr Lipp]

nah dont pity them. they're just weak-willed. I'd live with it if I thought i was a woman inside (or just kill myself - the world doesnt need any more gashes)

[The Tourist]

ah, ever the sympathetic one.

[Henriette]

I don't know... I'd like to go back to the days when the pressure was more on the men. What now? We have to work, mother, slut, etc. No rest for the weary, they say.

[Fab]

frank, i didnt think there's been a tranny criminal.Well I don't know if there has, though you'd assume there must've been in the 50 or so years its been happening. But yeah, in the eyes of the law a tranny is still their original gender, so they get treated as such. They might be looked upon more leniently by judges in sentencing though, given that it'd be absolute hell for a tranny in prison.

[The Tourist]

back to ze subject..

I am all for feminism, equality etc. I just think that issues have to be considered realistically. The problem is that it's a friggin' tough job to try and change a way of thinking, and a patriarchal social structure, in a short time. I think that we must be careful not to lose the positive aspects of that structure. I'll allow you all to decide what those are.
Anyway, I don't think things are changing that positively. Instead of education there is just an enforced political correctness. This certainly doesn't help, it merely makes people more stubborn and bitter about whatever they have issues with; whether that be empowered women, religions, races etc. Sadly most people are victims of their gender and hormones. Men, as every knows, act as they do because of aggression, fear, and violence. I just think that it is unequivocal to assume that people can change from what they've been programmed to think. Boys' heroes are undoubtedly always violent figures, therefore violence is okay. Power, dominance, strength etc., it's what's expected of men. And face it, that's predominantly what the vast majority of women look for in men. So what changes can be expected? I don't see how women can expect their men to be towers of strength, and then at the same time have complete equality in things that have traditionally been the domain of men. It's a double blow for men, not only do they lose what is assumed to be their right, but they're also told that they are wrong. And of course, being men, they don't know how to react to it.. so they lash out, things are continually crap and everyone dies in the end.
Anyway, I'm just rambling(rose!) now. I'm on neither side of the argument, I think people are stupid if they can't see outside of their biology.

[elisabeth]

i think it is funny (and heartbreaking) how this discussion always kind of revolves around whether or not feminists (both male and female) are demanding too much or whether it is appropriate to even have this discussion at all.

"Shut up. Stop your bitching. It is unfeminine. ( :D ) "
And then you get called a lesbian and everybody goes back to watching pornos.

[The Tourist]

who did that?!

[The Tourist]

lezza :D

[elisabeth]

Oh I'm just bitching.
It's the menses you know.
Makes us all crazy.
:D


I do wanna know how we went from women's suffrage to Paris Hilton in under 100 years.
Anybody who can shed light on that has my admiration.

[Leela]

First up, I do not think that women>men, nor do I think men>women, I just think that people=people. Yes, I make the odd sweeping generalisation about males, and yes, I am just as susceptible to drooling over shoes and crying about being an old maid as the most servile and unreconstructed wench (the word "wench" I am using in a lighthearted manner and because it's a funny word, I expect to be beaten to death with a Dworkin-shaped mallet any time now for such flip), but we are conditioned so very hard by all this rubbish that it's impossible not to be affected by it.


I totally agree. I'm not a feminist, I believe in equality. I hate it when ANYONE, be they men, women, black, white, gay, straight, an ostrich etc. ask for special rights. Special rights suck, equal rights rock. The end.

[elisabeth]

:cry:

[Jackal]

I haven't read any feminist books or really understand what the hell they want. Why should there be a group for this? I see feminine struggles as one on one challenges not as a huge thing we have to change.

*That doesn't include before mentioned countries with real problems.

Elisabeth or Ciona, what the hell does a feminist want from men exactly?

I'm not sure where I stand. I've supported myself and have dealt with ill treatment, jokes, and have had my body groped. I've been treated poorly on occasion and have wished to be a man so I wouldn't have to deal with such crap. But I don't blame men or society, I blame the dude that is pestering me.

I have also used my womanly ways to my advantage. Smiles, flirting. Acting the dumb blond part, can be an incredible tool.

If a woman wants to have a job such as crab fisherman, fireman, welder, police--or any other job that takes muscle and strength, that used to only hire men. I think she should be held to the same qualifications as a male.
If she can't do everything a male can, she should be paid less.

If a woman is getting paid less than male co-workers, for an office job or a career where both sexes could be equally great--then it's her doing to stay and feel unfairly treated or to search for a better working environment.
----


A woman who expects mechanics, plumbers, pilots, gas station workers and movers to be men, can't be angry when men thinks she should be home watching children.

[Kelly Kapowski]

i dont have time to read this thread right now, but before i do, all i gotta say is, yeah i believe in equality, but women kick ass.


sistashs are doin' it for themselves!

[Leela]

I've been treated poorly on occasion and have wished to be a man so I wouldn't have to deal with such crap. But I don't blame men or society, I blame the dude that is pestering me.



See, this is where the problem lies. Of COURSE the dude has to be held responsible for his actions, I'm definately not taking away personal responsibility. But being a Sociology minor/soon to be major, I've learned that society has a significant role the actions of individuals. If that dude that's pestering you is taught by his group of friends, his family, his community etc. that it's OK to do this, then he's more likely to act on his impluses.

So basically what I'm saying is that you can't blame just the individual and you can't blame just society, both of those factors play a role in the actions of people.

[elisabeth]

I haven't read any feminist books or really understand what the hell they want. Why should there be a group for this? I see feminine struggles as one on one challenges not as a huge thing we have to change.

Dude, if there weren't so many one-on-one problems, then I would agree with you here.
Elisabeth or Ciona, what the hell does a feminist want from men exactly?

Can't speak for Ciona, but as a feminist, I guess I expect a hell of a lot more from women. More in terms of standing up for ourselves. More in terms of calling jackasses out (continued...)

I'm not sure where I stand. I've supported myself and have dealt with ill treatment, jokes, and have had my body groped. I've been treated poorly on occasion and have wished to be a man so I wouldn't have to deal with such crap. But I don't blame men or society, I blame the dude that is pestering me.

on stuff like this shit that you've mentioned above. Bullshit that way too many people think is inevitable or okay. The fact that you have been given a hard enough time that you wished you could change your sex (I have also had many of these experiences) speaks volumes to me. I doubt for a minute that many men would have ever been treated so badly because they are men that they wished to change places with women.

You get paid less for the same work. You can't walk around alone at night without being paranoid. You are damned career-wise for having kids and then damned socially if you don't. There is an entire advertising industry devoted to making you feel like shit (and they are beginning to do it to men now that they've seen how much crap they can sell by fostering physical insecurity) about your body the minute you stop looking like a teenager.

But so many women these days – young, smart, beautiful women are so afraid to offend people that they backpedal and backpedal and say 'oh no I'm not a feminist, I'm an equalist, I swear I don't hate men blah blah blah' (or some such nonsense) because they are afraid of being thought of as unattractive and bitter and angry and of course, a lesbian. :rolleyes: It is total bullshit. And you should blame society for crap like the above because we collectively tolerate and therefore perpetuate that kind of behavior.
Yes it is an individual responsibility to not be an asshole and a chauvinist, but if nobody calls folks on this shit, what motivation will anybody ever have to give up that advantage?

Ever since women started agitating for the vote, and the right to own property, and have orgasms and a sex drive (and not get raped & brutalized for it because they are a 'slut') and birth control, and get paid real wages for working, and not be socially and economically penalized for having children and to be treated with some goddamn dignity, there has been a very vocal opposition (and they are not all men, either) that degrades and criticizes and labels and shames women with the tits to stand up for their rights.

Many women are way too eager to win male approval, and for some reason many of them believe that men won't date a feminist, and so even if they believe in equal rights for women they'll not claim to be feminists.

I have never had this problem, and I'd never date a guy who was such an ignorant bastard that they though all feminists were man-haters. That attitude is borne of woman-hating propaganda and fear. Anybody who buys into it isn't thinking hard enough about the world and real life to be interesting to me romantically. It is just too stupid to be real.

The hate propaganda is working really well. You don't have to keep people down legally if they feel like shit for who they are.

[Kinbote]

Sounds like somebody's on her period!

[Leela]

Sounds like somebody's on her period!

LMAO!

[Nak Nak]

But so many women these days – young, smart, beautiful women are so afraid to offend people that they backpedal and backpedal and say 'oh no I'm not a feminist, I'm an equalist, I swear I don't hate men blah blah blah' (or some such nonsense) because they are afraid of being thought of as unattractive and bitter and angry and of course, a lesbian. :rolleyes: It is total bullshit. And you should blame society for crap like the above because we collectively tolerate and therefore perpetuate that kind of behavior.
Yes it is an individual responsibility to not be an asshole and a chauvinist, but if nobody calls folks on this shit, what motivation will anybody ever have to give up that advantage?

Wait, but what's wrong with someone saying they are an equalist? I agree with you that equality is hindered by a lack of assertiveness among many women, however. By the way, as a male I would find self-hate-on-account-of-gender unattractive and terribly exasperating.

[elisabeth]

Wait, but what's wrong with someone saying they are an equalist?.

Because it's a cop-out.
:santa:

[The Tourist]

yeah, and a cop is a man's job - out.

[Static Split Screen]

I think it's that most women don't hate men.

[mr. dynamite]

you people really act like morons sometimes...
keep on truckin, elisabeth

[mr. dynamite]

...and whoever else is not behaving like an idiot

[Nak Nak]

Because it's a cop-out.
:santa:

You don't explain why. If feminism is equalism when it comes down to it, what word would you use for real feminism? Or do you think a stronger label is required for equalism, even though it's innaccurate?

[Nak Nak]

...and whoever else is not behaving like an idiot

I will keep truckin' I always keep truckin'. Truckin' is my business.

[mr. dynamite]

europeans know nothing about truckin'

[Kelly Kapowski]

eliot, you are such a card.

If being an equalist is a cop-out, then what's left? Extremities?

I sincerely and highly doubt any of the gals on here who claim to be equalists are doing so because they don't want others to think they are a dyke. While I know that is entirely possible and women are afraid to voice what we may believe to be certain truths, not every woman is this way and you have to give some credit to these people instead of seemingly grouping them as fearful fems.

If anything, it seems as if what you are saying is hindering any change and is further perpetuating the annoying gender and social grievances that so many of us as a people are trying to overcome. It's great if you believe in women and their empowerment and the need and importance to ensure it and what have you, but your view seems rather stagnant and wouldn't allow much progression as a cohesive force since you seem to deny many of the women who want acknowledgement and fairness, even though it's in the form of equality for both genders.

Gnome sane? My two cents, which are two very, very rusty pennies.

[elisabeth]

You don't explain why. If feminism is equalism when it comes down to it, what word would you use for real feminism? Or do you think a stronger label is required for equalism, even though it's innaccurate?

It is a cop out because it rejects over 100 years of work done by countless real women and men to advance women's rights.
That is feminism.
"Equalism" is watered down — it doesn't mean the same thing.
It is a way of aligning yourself with everyone and no one at the same time, and therefore carries no power.
Why reject the term "feminism" if you agree women and men should be treated equally?

[Static Split Screen]

I always thought:

Feminism: Women are better.
Equalism: Women and men are equal.

Seems pretty obvious to me.

[elisabeth]

I always thought:

Feminism: Women are better.
Equalism: Women and men are equal.

Seems pretty obvious to me.

This from the Oxford English Dictionary:

"Feminism

1. The qualities of females.
1851 in OGILVIE.

2. [After F. féminisme.] Advocacy of the rights of women (based on the theory of equality of the sexes). (Cf. WOMANISM.)
1895 Athenæum 27 Apr. 533/2 Her intellectual evolution and her coquettings with the doctrines of ‘feminism’ are traced with real humour. 1908 Daily Chron. 7 May 4/7 In Germany feminism is openly Socialistic. 1909 Ibid. 29 May 4/4 Suffragists, suffragettes, and all the other phases in the crescendo of feminism.

3. Path. The development of female secondary sexual characteristics in a male.

1882 Syd. Soc. Lex. II, Feminism, the qualities of a female. Also Lorain's term for the arrest of development of the male towards the age of puberty, which gives to it somewhat of the attributes of the female. 1945 H. BURROWS Biol. Actions Sex Hormones xxiii. 453 The symptoms of adrenal virilism and feminism are caused by an excessive production of androgen or oestrogen by the adrenal."

[Nak Nak]

"Equalism" is watered down — it doesn't mean the same thing.
It is a way of aligning yourself with everyone and no one at the same time, and therefore carries no power.


You haven't backed that up at all, how can you say a word has no power? If you think the word doesn't have sufficient clout in appearance and connotation then you are probably worrying too much about how other people see you. I don't see any problem with it. If you are an "equalist" then you must support the work that countless "real" (isn't everyone real?) people have done in the name of gender equalisation and women's rights, no?

[The Tourist]

[QUOTE=elisabeth;2152679]This from the Oxford English Dictionary:

"Feminism



2. [After F. féminisme.][B] Advocacy of the rights of women (based on the theory of equality of the sexes).

3. Path. The development of female secondary sexual characteristics in a male.

QUOTE]

wait.. so feminism IS equality... and it's also about dudes growing breasts and needing tammys?

[Nak Nak]

Wait, check this out: if there were no men, then everyone would be feminist! Not need for pesky, pathetic equalists!

[elisabeth]

I backed it up just fine I'd say.
Why reject a perfectly good term (with a history going back to the French Revolution) that describes a movement unless you are trying to distance yourself from that movement?
And then advance another term that apparently means the same thing?
It doesn't make a bit of sense.
Mary Wollstonecraft is rolling in her grave, dude.

If you are talking about advancing the rights of Man in general, you might use such a term, but if you are talking about women's issues and women's rights then why reject the movement that got us the vote? Doesn't make sense to me at all.

[elisabeth]

[QUOTE=elisabeth;2152679]This from the Oxford English Dictionary:

"Feminism



2. [After F. féminisme.][B] Advocacy of the rights of women (based on the theory of equality of the sexes).

3. Path. The development of female secondary sexual characteristics in a male.

QUOTE]

wait.. so feminism IS equality... and it's also about dudes growing breasts and needing tammys?

Yes.
Exactly.
Dudes growing breasts.
That ought to get Congress to finally pass the Equal Rights Amendment.
America is a very pro-breast culture.
:chicken:

[Nak Nak]

Ok, I'll concede that one, to an extent, simply because it is convenient due to current perceptions that are influenced by times gone by. I still feel that it is innaccurate and misleading in too many ways for me to like or use it.

I suppose I was arguing with you about why you don't like "equalism". Seems like a perfectly good and descriptive term: if you are an equalist - then you support the work of the feminists that pursued equality as well as any rare cases where men see an imbalance that works against men. However, feminism is a catch-all term too, when one says "I'm a feminist," does it mean you advocate equality in women's rights, or does it mean you support a matriarchial society(for example)? I know there are the terms liberal or radical feminist, but aren't they a little clumsy?

[Narcissistic Nihilist]

I totally agree. I'm not a feminist, I believe in equality. I hate it when ANYONE, be they men, women, black, white, gay, straight, an ostrich etc. ask for special rights. Special rights suck, equal rights rock. The end.

Spot on.

Feminism is a total misnomer as by its very definition it cannot be for equality. That is why it is such a ridiculed and squeemish notion in the more liberated society. In this day and age when the average female has many more advantages in the workplace, this old archaic tool is dtill dragged out as a term of sexism against males, and a case to serve a very biased agenda.

The true "equalists" if you will, have long since realised that this outdated notion of feminism serves no place in the modern intelligent mind, and a better, fairer system needs to take its place. However, maybe naive souls still see feminism as a struggle, and in their confused minds still class the quest for equality, as a case for feminsim, when nothing could do more damage for their cause. Besides, in so many female minds, feminism has done far more harm than good anyway.

[elisabeth]

I suppose I was arguing with you about why you don't like "equalism". Seems like a perfectly good and descriptive term: if you are an equalist - then you support the work of the feminists that pursued equality as well as any rare cases where men see an imbalance that works against men.

See paragraph two of the above post. Also: to be really picky-picky, the correct term is "equalitarian" if you are talking about the universality of human rights. But "equalist" is technically a word. So it can still be used, but must be qualified as having to do with humans. You could be an equalist about hamburgers if you wanted to. All hamburgers are not created equal though, so don't try givin' me that shit.

However, feminism is a catch-all term too, when one says "I'm a feminist," does it mean you advocate equality in women's rights, or does it mean you support a matriarchial society(for example)?

See the OED definition for your answer to this.
It means that men grow big boobs and suckle their young.

[elisabeth]

Spot on.

Feminism is a total misnomer as by its very definition it cannot be for equality. That is why it is such a ridiculed and squeemish notion in the more liberated society. In this day and age when the average female has many more advantages in the workplace, this old archaic tool is dtill dragged out as a term of sexism against males, and a case to serve a very biased agenda.

The true "equalists" if you will, have long since realised that this outdated notion of feminism serves no place in the modern intelligent mind, and a better, fairer system needs to take its place. However, maybe naive souls still see feminism as a struggle, and in their confused minds still class the quest for equality, as a case for feminsim, when nothing could do more damage for their cause. Besides, in so many female minds, feminism has done far more harm than good anyway.


I'm guessin' you didn't read the thread.
But I'm just a naive soul after all.
heh.
:band:

[Livelivemydarling]

Disregard above.

You chicks are always looking for excuses not to bake me cakes.

win!

[Narcissistic Nihilist]

I'm guessin' you didn't read the thread.
But I'm just a naive soul after all.
heh.
:band:

Well you guessed wrong. Maybe that is due to your admitted naivety.

[gangsta puffin]

ahem! AIM! please? :-*

[Narcissistic Nihilist]

ahem! AIM! please? :-*

I'm really late, honey. Call me while I make my breakfast

[Herr Lipp]

i dont have time to read this thread right now, but before i do, all i gotta say is, yeah i believe in equality, but women kick ass.


sistashs are doin' it for themselves!


*triple-snap*

F'REALZ

[Jackal]

You get paid less for the same work. You can't walk around alone at night without being paranoid. You are damned career-wise for having kids and then damned socially if you don't. There is an entire advertising industry devoted to making you feel like shit (and they are beginning to do it to men now that they've seen how much crap they can sell by fostering physical insecurity) about your body the minute you stop looking like a teenager.

But so many women these days – young, smart, beautiful women are so afraid to offend people that they backpedal and backpedal and say 'oh no I'm not a feminist, I'm an equalist, I swear I don't hate men blah blah blah' (or some such nonsense) because they are afraid of being thought of as unattractive and bitter and angry and of course, a lesbian. :rolleyes: It is total bullshit. And you should blame society for crap like the above because we collectively tolerate and therefore perpetuate that kind of behavior.
Yes it is an individual responsibility to not be an asshole and a chauvinist, but if nobody calls folks on this shit, what motivation will anybody ever have to give up that advantage?

Ever since women started agitating for the vote, and the right to own property, and have orgasms and a sex drive (and not get raped & brutalized for it because they are a 'slut') and birth control, and get paid real wages for working, and not be socially and economically penalized for having children and to be treated with some goddamn dignity, there has been a very vocal opposition (and they are not all men, either) that degrades and criticizes and labels and shames women with the tits to stand up for their rights.

Many women are way too eager to win male approval, and for some reason many of them believe that men won't date a feminist, and so even if they believe in equal rights for women they'll not claim to be feminists.

I have never had this problem, and I'd never date a guy who was such an ignorant bastard that they though all feminists were man-haters. That attitude is borne of woman-hating propaganda and fear. Anybody who buys into it isn't thinking hard enough about the world and real life to be interesting to me romantically. It is just too stupid to be real.

The hate propaganda is working really well. You don't have to keep people down legally if they feel like shit for who they are.

Some of this isn't true. Women can make as much money as a man for the same work. Men are sometimes paranoid walking at night. Women are going to have to learn to deal with the questions, if they don't follow the marriage, kids routine. So do men.

I'm 40, so I know all about not looking young and how society tells me I'm worthless if I don't buy wrinkle cream or get surgery. Men on here constantly say sagging breasts are ugly, right after they say they love big tits. But I don't buy any of that shit because I take care of myself, I look way better than a lot of teenage girls. I see age overtaking my looks, but that's what happens in real life. I feel less concerned now, than I ever have about my body. I look wonderful to me. By 27 most women will notice they are already older than what most men find attractive.

I know many chauvinist men, they are raised that way, it's so ingrained that you are wasting time fighting with them. I don't crave male or female approval because I will never get it. I don't expect to please anyone or live in a happy place where nothing is wrong. A lot of this stuff is common sense, isn't it? I'm treated with dignity and respect because I act in a way to earn it. Women have to stand up for themselves or they will be treated like shit. Especially in a relationship. I would never put up with cruelty from anyone.

But to think we can join a group and change the way women and men have seen eachother for millions of years is a little bit crazy. Maybe we just want more equality because we grew up with tons of freedom and have never been held back really, except by ourselves. I feel equal in my marriage and my life. I expect all women to get that for themselves because I can't see society as a whole changing anytime soon.

[Herr Lipp]

allison again is the voice of reason

[Leela]

Allison, what did you think of my reply? I want to get your view on the role society plays in the behavior of men...

i thought i made a good point :cry:

[Jackal]

See, this is where the problem lies. Of COURSE the dude has to be held responsible for his actions, I'm definately not taking away personal responsibility. But being a Sociology minor/soon to be major, I've learned that society has a significant role the actions of individuals. If that dude that's pestering you is taught by his group of friends, his family, his community etc. that it's OK to do this, then he's more likely to act on his impluses.

So basically what I'm saying is that you can't blame just the individual and you can't blame just society, both of those factors play a role in the actions of people.

I have a huge problem with a single individual that doesn't take full responsibility for his actions. Regardless of how he was raised. I fully believe this is the same thing as race issues, moral issues, everything. Parents teach their kids their beliefs, intentionally or not. But at some point during childhood, or as a teen or even as an adult that person is challenged with what they've been taught and can choose to change it.

I do believe they would act on impulse. But that doesn't OK it. They have got to see at some point that what they are doing is wrong. Society plays an enormous part, but it can't be used as an excuse.

[Static Split Screen]

Good replies Allison :yes:

And individual has to own up to what he or she does. Yes, society can help shape how people think, but it's not set in stone, and different people react different to society every day.

And in response to Allison's paragraph on society and women's attractiveness: I do think women have a definite double-standard when it comes to what society deems "beautiful." What's held as the pinnacle of perfection to many people is unattainable for most women. We have a huge gap between the average woman's body (5'5" and 140 I believe) and the model's body (5'10" and 115 pounds). But I don't think we can blame that all on men, as most men like a more natural-looking woman rather than a tall emaciated one. Additionally, men can be considered just as sexy when they age, but when a woman ages she's considered "over the hill." Even though they have new "sexy" 40 year olds, they all have surgery so they don't look 40 (see desperate housewives.)

Anyone else with me on this? It might be slightly off topic to feminism, but I think it's still relevant.

[Leela]

I do believe they would act on impulse. But that doesn't OK it. They have got to see at some point that what they are doing is wrong. Society plays an enormous part, but it can't be used as an excuse.

I definately agree with you, I'm just saying that society does play a role, but it still doesn't make it ok.

[ramblingrose]

I think you raised a good point, Laura, about reality vs ideal.

Allison, I think it's great that you've made peace with yourself in the way you have, and I don't have any beef with your views, it's just for me, I think it's a bit more political than that. I basically want to be you. so it's no criticism.

There's been a lot of arguing about semantics etc in this thread, but not many ideas for solutions. Anyone? I mean, I don't have any, but it'd be nice if someone did.

[Mary Alice]

I like the term feminist mostly because I think there is a LOT to be done still as far as the rights of women are concerned. In many ways I have it nice and sunny and beautiful here in Florida, USA, but what about Somalia, Saudi Arabia, Afghanistan and many other places I can mention. Hell in this country what about that dude in Colorado Springs who wanted to marry young girls to old men saying it's the mormon way. That cult doesn't believe in wives taking more than one husband, they believe in husbands taking more than one wife so gender is definintly a contributing factor.

And while I think male cicumcision is barbaric...Iggy can say all he wants if 2 out of every 9 boys cicrumcized in Somalia died due to the circumcision they wouldn't have continued the practice. And if it caused most boys here in the states to not even be able to PEE normally they wouldn't do it either. IMale circumcision reduces sensitivity, it sucks and it should be stopped. Call it torture of little babies. When two out of nine women in somalia die though it's tantamount to murder. And it's just because they're women...

Women veiled in black in the stifling heat to where they can't see the light...that causes clinical depression you know being in the dark all the time. There are organizations trying to bring music back to North Afghanistan and certain people there won't let the women join and sing because hearing womens voices is so sin inducing. I fucking love to sing. This veiling thing is all specific to women.

I've faced misogyny at my own work. "I can't believe she thinks she can come up and TALK to us" They like some of the girls they say this about but I've heard them, when they're having bad days they talk trash about the girls at work to make them feel better. I've earned the respect of guys at work now, and I like most of them, no ones perfect and I've probably done as bad. I don't see any problem with having to earn respect. But I still see subtle things like the days I look good they treat me with respect and they days I look like shit they think they have more right to be assholes. And no one said anything about this one manager R who kept making comments about his dick and showing all the girls porn because I knew he didn't mean anything by it. But to counteract Elliot's statement I know more girls who say nothing for fear of being branded someone who can't take a joke, who makes it hard for the guys, being ostracized for being a prude so as long as that's still happening I think the idea of feminism isn't obsolete in that situation. (and for the record folks the former Navy guy at work who served as manager for a short while was a total gentleman who had real leadership skills and learned how to communicate to R that he needed to change some things so take the military men are the pigs stereotype and shove it up your ass)....

[Mary Alice]

But I also feel the words elisabeth said about years and years of fighting. It's not like I want to support feminsm to champion any horrible behavior I see, I think feminists should try and live up to what they believe. That's why I champion when I see like a Lupe Fiasco video even if the song sucks I'm like "but it's not soft core porn like other rap videos!" the girl gets to wear CLOTHES! I wish less women would do stuff like that being happy to look like accesories. Even though most of them are shrewd businesswomen which brings me to my next topic

what is FEMININE about that? Nothing. If they are as hard assed as they seem and fighting for what they say they are, their lives must be empty. Real femininty is still not respected in the culture as much as masculinity. All though there are lights here and there of femininity being shown as something good rather than just weakness it's the exception rather than the rule. And that leaves me to Elliott and the business room

if there are good qualities and bad qualities men and women both have (most girls have girl disease and most boys have boy disease for example) wouldn't it be a stronger workplace if women's point of view gets out there so the two postives outweigh the two negatives? Why does the masculine constructed workplace have to stay the ideal? I agree 100% don't enter a business you can't handle, and don't just be hatin', but I think in small and subtle ways as women in leadership positions becomes more and more commonplace why can't it change. most women in leadership positions now are pretty masculine, but why should it still have to look like that 20 years from now? Why can't there be all types of leaders? And note in this way I am in some ways an equalist because I think it would be just as horrible if women ran things with no balance, but I think it's more feminist because I recognize there is a difference between the genders to make that statement.

Craig and Maddie are awesome. If they are equalists then hell maybe I AM all for equalism. I would never expect a guy to totally understand why I like feminism, I'm just glad there are awesome, sane, wonderful relateable people out there who treat all human beings like human beings.

But I do hope they understand two things..1)calling yourself a feminist doesn't mean you hate men and 2) I think the feminist generation worked hard to make strides for women and to be comfortable and not keep going seems sad and 3)women and men are different so there will always be an issue with making them equal because how do you compare apples and oranges? Just because you work equally hard to make sure apples and oranges are both loved doesn't make them the same fruit.

I understand if you still disagree with feminism saying it can be divisive because I do see your points and you've almost won me over. I was mostly just making those three points to point out feminists don't call themselves that because they're horrible male hating people.

[Narcissistic Nihilist]

There is still a lot of confusion on the subject, it appears. Feminsim will never be about equality until it campaigns on behalf of men in the areas where women have the upper hand (custody cases, child support, getting jobs etc), but hey thats equality.

Allison seems to have the best idea on here, although she does exaggerate the role of the parent, when a child is shaped more by his peers.

[Narcissistic Nihilist]

Women veiled in black

this is rather a misnomer as most women WANT to wear the veil. This is rather recent news in the UK.

[Mary Alice]

this is rather a misnomer as most women WANT to wear the veil. This is rather recent news in the UK.

I respect the women who do want to be veiled, I think a majority of the ones who are veiled happily cover only their heads and only don the fullbody one for prayer.

My dad has had to work in many Arab countries and in Jordan, for example, many women don't. There are wives of some IMAMS there that don't. The queen herself Queen Ranya just covers herself for prayer, not even her head. My Palestinian friend started covering her head when she got engaged. In Egypt most women just cover their heads, too, another place my dad has been lucky enough to go.

In Afghanistan many women had to wear the burqua that aren't even Pashto (the people of southern Afghanistan where the Taliban got it's start and where the burqua was a tradition) people because Tabliban ruled their area. The people in Northern Afghanistan had no tradition of covering before that. In Saudi and Iran it is enforced by law so women DON'T have a choice. POliceman took a heavy stick/crowbar and hit the arms of a friend of my mom who's husband was stationed in Saudi with the army because it was a hot day and she didn't snap the wrists of her outfit so it showed some wrist...she brought the outfit in to a class mom was taking.

Then there's Marjane Satrapi's book persepolis where on the first page (I am in a hurry but if you look it up on Amazon I think you can take a look at the first page there) she shows what it was like when her schoolroom in Iran, none of whom used to veil, suddenly had to do it when the Ayatollah took over and it's kind of a funny cartoon.

There was a case here in the states of a woman who didn't want to remove her veil that covered her face sans eyes for her drivers license photo. And yes, I've heard of the situation in Britain.

But I think some people cling to strange traditions in different countries even more than the countries they immigrated from. Like I said in countries where they aren't compelled by law to cover, like Jordan and Egypt, they usually just cover their hair, you can even see their face, and in Jordan some don't even cover at all. They believe the only command to veil in the Koran has to do with not wearing tight clothing during prayer that could distract men so they make sure to wear a loose traditional outfit (white by the way not black) when they pray in Egypt or Jordan but even that doesn't cover their face, just their hair. I don't compare the one where their face isn't all covered to something like the burqua, which seems opressive and restrictive and depressing to me being in the dark, and not healthy for the heat when it's a dark color.

Many Muslims say the horrible burqua in Afghanistan is a tradition of a certain people there and not Islam.

If someone in England does want to full cover though that's their right. That doesn't change the fact that in countries like Iran and Saudi Arabia women are FORCED to wear very restrictive clothing that I doubt all of them would chose to wear.

[Jackal]

Wow, thanks everybody! That really makes me feel good!

Danny might be right about peers. I remember doing loads of stuff as young as age 9 that my parents would not approve of. I went along with things. I also said no quite a bit if it was stuff I didn't want to do.

The body image problem is huge. I felt like a 7 or an 8 compared to other women, but wasted most of my life seeing only the imperfections. With every compliment, my mind would remind me that my stomach stuck out 2 inches or my thighs touched--thats when I weighed 105.

It wasn't until age 38 that I realized how much of my life I wasted worrying about how I looked. I should have been worrying about my actual health, which would have made me my best, and less worried. I should have been out of my head discovering things and focusing on what I wanted for myself. I do this now though. It's like the outside finally doesn't matter and that is so fucking peaceful!

So, if you spend hours a day or week fixating on your weight or looks, eat healthy, exercise and you won't have to anymore. You will save yourself years of self-depreciating thoughts, and self-doubt. I would call myself a dumb-ass for wasting those hours, when I could have been doing something fun and positive.

Also I think you shouldn't get serious with a man until you are grown. Until you have finished school and learned a little about life and have your own goals. Just because I've been with him, since I was 17 and I wonder how I would have been, if I didn't have him influencing my thougths every day of my life. I've never had an apartment of my own. I have a bedroom here that's all to myself and I love that room and it makes me wonder about the sacrifices I've made and how much I've let him control me. I know your mothers tell you this stuff, but it's true. You should have a career also.

[Narcissistic Nihilist]

If someone in England does want to full cover though that's their right. That doesn't change the fact that in countries like Iran and Saudi Arabia women are FORCED to wear very restrictive clothing that I doubt all of them would chose to wear.

Thats the thing, when given the choice most of them want to. But yeah, thats the West. Im sure there are women in the middle east who would choose not to, but when asked they tend to say they do. Whther that is due to external pressure and fear, or whether it is because they really think that, it would almost certainly depend on the woman. Different views and all that.

Personally, I cant understand why they would want to wear them, but then Im not a devout Muslim, and I do comprehend how their faith (and thereofre veil-wearing) is a very important part of them that want to have and wouldnt give up for the world.

The only reasonable solution to this is simply to have the option there. It is just as wrong to force them to remove it, (as many feminists call for, due to their own view that it hinders women everywhere, which of course is not the view of those they propose to "help"), as it is to force to them to wear it. Simply offer the choice and then, (apart from the fact the numbers who would still want to wear it would shock many people), the oppression from both cultural authorites and over-zealous feminists is over, whatever they decide.

[sleepy sinner]

I'm a feminist when I speak about women's disadvantage. To be equalist, you'd have to be speaking of opposing all forms of disadvantage. It is too neutral a term for me in that I think disadvantaged people who identify with collectivities need, and are empowered by, terms that emphasise their distinct positionality and struggle without necessarily becoming attached to victimhood. Look at "queer", look at subalternity. This is especially true due to our subjection to a mainstream discourse for a long time now that assumes equality is confined to legal equality, or has been achieved (Faludi). All 'equalist' says is that you are explicitly for equality. 'Feminist' is always about equality but ALSO explicitly signifies that the advancement and rethinking of women (and many other genders) is required to attain equality. It encompasses both the ideal AND the specific alterity or the distance to be covered. To me. This is also true of terms other than feminist. Also, anyone who has delved into feminism in anything but a shallow sense knows that feminism is NOT inherently oppositional to the rethinking of masculinity or subjected masculine genders.
Really, a more accurate term would be genderist as there are many subjected genders. This is again rather neutral however.

[sleepy sinner]

There's been a lot of discussion of beauty practices and perhaps cosmetic surgery on this board.
Some interesting articles (although I could overload on essential sources forever Ciona!):

Bartky, Sandra Lee. ‘Foucault, Femininity and the Modernization of Patriarchal Power.’ In Irene Diamond and Lee Quinby (eds). Feminism and Foucault. Boston: Northeastern University Press, 1988.

Piess, Kathy. ‘Making Up, Making Over. Cosmetics, Consumer Culture, and Women’s Identity.’ In Victoria de Grazia and Ellen Furlough (eds). The Sex of Things: Gender and Consumption in Historical Perspective. Berkeley/Los Angeles/London: University of California Press, 1996.

Coles, Fen. ‘Feminine Charms and Outrageous Arms.’ In Janet Price and Margrit Shildrick (eds). Feminist Theory and the Body: A Reader. Edinburgh: Edinburgh University Press, 1999 - really interesting and short.

Haiken, Elizabeth. Venus Envy: A History of Cosmetic Surgery. Baltimore/London: John Hopkins University Press, 1997.

[Static Split Screen]

Wow, thanks everybody! That really makes me feel good!

Danny might be right about peers. I remember doing loads of stuff as young as age 9 that my parents would not approve of. I went along with things. I also said no quite a bit if it was stuff I didn't want to do.

The body image problem is huge. I felt like a 7 or an 8 compared to other women, but wasted most of my life seeing only the imperfections. With every compliment, my mind would remind me that my stomach stuck out 2 inches or my thighs touched--thats when I weighed 105.

It wasn't until age 38 that I realized how much of my life I wasted worrying about how I looked. I should have been worrying about my actual health, which would have made me my best, and less worried. I should have been out of my head discovering things and focusing on what I wanted for myself. I do this now though. It's like the outside finally doesn't matter and that is so fucking peaceful!

So, if you spend hours a day or week fixating on your weight or looks, eat healthy, exercise and you won't have to anymore. You will save yourself years of self-depreciating thoughts, and self-doubt. I would call myself a dumb-ass for wasting those hours, when I could have been doing something fun and positive.

Also I think you shouldn't get serious with a man until you are grown. Until you have finished school and learned a little about life and have your own goals. Just because I've been with him, since I was 17 and I wonder how I would have been, if I didn't have him influencing my thougths every day of my life. I've never had an apartment of my own. I have a bedroom here that's all to myself and I love that room and it makes me wonder about the sacrifices I've made and how much I've let him control me. I know your mothers tell you this stuff, but it's true. You should have a career also.

Body talk:

I completely agree. I'm getting to that point too. I used to be obsessed with how I looked and though I was fat even when I was emaciated. I'm still underweight, but I don't constantly think I'm fat and I'm not as absolutely batshit crazy when it comes to food. It no longer controls my life, though I think it'll always be a fundamental part of who I am. Craig is attracted to me and that's enough for me. If others want to think I'm pretty, yeah, that makes me feel good, but I don't really care if they think I'm pretty or not.

Boy and career talk:

Sometimes I do get nervous because I've been with Craig so long and I have a feeling we'll be together a long while yet. But I'm not going to throw a great relationship away just so I can live on my own for awhile, and I don't think anyone else should either. Honestly, I would be afraid to live on my own. I'm such a spazz I'd forget to pay bills and lock my keys in my apartment and put off grocery shopping because I couldn't be bothered going. I do wish I could have moved away for college a bit so I could have experienced living on my own, but my family doesn't have the money for that. So whatever happens, happens.

I do wholeheartedly agree that women should have a career, or at least the qualitications that they could have one if they wanted. What if the marriage ends? What if the husband dies? It would be terrible to be stuck with nothing if the husband didn't have enough savings or a way to help the woman and children if something happened to him. Same vice versa, if the woman's the one who brings in most of the money. That happened when my parents divorced. My mom went back to grad school and became a teacher and now has a great career, and my dad, who used to sit at home tinkering with computers all day is still broke.

[Larkspur]

:D

[lisa]

Woman is the nigger of the world
Yes she is...think about it
Woman is the nigger of the world
Think about it...do something about it

We make her paint her face and dance
If she won’t be slave, we say that she don’t love us
If she’s real, we say she’s trying to be a man
While putting her down we pretend that she is above us

Woman is the nigger of the world...yes she is
If you don’t belive me take a look to the one you’re with
Woman is the slaves of the slaves
Ah yeah...better screem about it

We make her bear and raise our children
And then we leave her flat for being a fat old mother then
We tell her home is the only place she would be
Then we complain that she’s too unworldly to be our friend

Woman is the nigger of the world...yes she is
If you don’t belive me take a look to the one you’re with
Woman is the slaves of the slaves
Yeah (think about it)

We insult her everyday on TV
And wonder why she has no guts or confidence
When she’s young we kill her will to be free
While telling her not to be so smart we put her down for being so dumb

Woman is the nigger of the world...yes she is
If you don’t belive me take a look to the one you’re with
Woman is the slaves of the slaves
Yes she is...if you belive me, you better screem about it.

We make her paint her face and dance
We make her paint her face and dance
We make her paint her face and dance

another excuse to post these lyrics!!!

btw elisabeth and sleepy sinner :yes: great posts. the boys who are all about the term 'equalist' dont understand the defintion of feminism to begin with, from what they say in their posts. culture and society have made radical changes in half a century because of the work of feminists... we (females) would still be living like 1950 if they hadnt. to give it a new title is a joke when it means the same thing. it's disrespectful to the people who gained you the right to vote and have good jobs and have men stay home and take care of the kids etc... i cant help but feel sad for females who feel the need to call themselves equalists as it is a term fearful men use. it comes from a delusional fear that all feminists are radical and want all men to be their slaves and birth their babies.
theres nothing to be scared of humans, women just want to be paid 1$ for every dollar a man makes for the same job, not 75 Cents on it which is how it still is today, no matter how you look at it, that is a fact.
to allisons point that a woman doesnt have as much muscles so she shouldnt be paid the same amount for a physical job... who says she cant do just as much, many women have been doing those jobs for a long time and producing just as much and still getting paid less. thats a very dated thing to say really. this is kinda a crap movie but i thought of that charlize theron movie 'north country' based on a true story about miners or something from last year.
there are stilll LONG ways to go before things are anywhere near equal, therefore using such a statement as 'equalist' is obsolete. we can fight to keep things equal once they are, but they are nowhere near that if you take a look outside industrialized countries (and of course in subtler ways in our industrialized coutries as well).

[Jackal]

That's not what I said. I said if a woman can't do her job as well as a man, she shouldn't be paid the same.

The feelings in that song can all be avoided if you don't get married or have children. That is what makes you a slave.

The role of mother and wife are about taking care of the ones you love and adore. It's doing things you would do anyway, but with others in mind, and doing things to their satisfaction. It can be all consuming to just keep up with what you need to accomplish for the other people.

Now picture your own mother, haven't you expected her to put food on the table, keep the house clean, take you places, have your laundry done, take you to the doctor. etc. Did you ever wonder what she gave up to turn into the person that can do all that shit like a machine?

So as you stand here talking equalism, haven't you been a part of making your mom feel like a slave?

[Jackal]

Oh, but I guess some women aren't like me, and have no difficulty with this issue. I grew up around very chauvinistic men and by age 8 was telling myself there was no way on Earth that I was going to get married and care to a man while he does nothing but act like a king. Um...never mind. It's hard because I fight who and what I am too much. I don't like the idea of the wife role, but can't say I dislike it all the time. I feel rebellious. But also find comfort in it. blah, blah, blah.

[lisa]

interesting points, sorry i didnt mean to offend or misquote. actually my mom wanted nothing more than to be a mom, she got married on her 20th birthday and had my sister by 21 and me by 23. She has never had a job really, she considers herself a mother and wife and having a family that loves her is all she ever really wanted.
She fed me and washed my clothes until was about 11 maybe, once she showed me how she sure as hell never did it for me again. Well, maybe on rare occasions.
But she liked sitting around taking care of us and my dad (at least when we were young), it was what she always wanted, she still refuses to get a job and both her kids are grown up so she has no real excuse. I always found that quite pathetic and have always strived to be nothing like her and I do not want kids cause I remember how bad I was.
I forget what my point is here, but seeing my mom love the 50s way of life always pissed me off and made me wish she had more education so she could see how sad that is.
Anyway, i think being married could be nice, im not against it, i dont think a piece of paper matters really but there's a comfort in it for sure.
I think your advice of not getting tied down young is very smart. My dad pushed that into my head growing up and Im happy I have went through school away from home on my own learning how to be completely independant.

[Jackal]

I don't think you can judge a life until you've lived it.

After 12 years of not working, I'm not exactly ready to jump back in myself. I thought I would the second my son went to school full time. But raising a kid to 1st grade was the most harrowing experience of my life. I felt shell-shocked and so altered. My whole world was this house and my baby. That's what it took for me to be a mother. I stopped the world and had a new one with only 2 people in it.

So by the time he went to school, I needed those hours to recuperate. Just sitting in a quiet house was a fucking dream to me! Not constantly interacting with another human for the first time in 6 years was great.

Then being alone for so many hours, you find a way to create your own existance. I've become the ultimate control freak in my own little world for four or more hours a day. I answer to no one, and do what I want. As long as I keep up with chores, have dinner ready, do the errands, do what is expected of me, that's all there is. It's wonderful. I like being kept when I look at it as it is. My husband makes me feel great about what I do.

[Cheryl K]

I'm currently working on a term paper with 3 other people about how women are essential to sustainable development in a variety of countries (Brazil, South Africa, Fiji, and Bangladesh). If anyone's interested, I can post a link when we have the final draft.

[Narcissistic Nihilist]

there are stilll LONG ways to go before things are anywhere near equal
..and you will never get there with such sexist attitudes as yours.

[Ghostdog]

I'm all for the improvement of women's position in society, and thus the basic ideas of feminism.

What I do resent is that a lot of feminist theory does exactly the same thing as male-chauvinism does to women, that is to say, construct a stereotyped male: brute, efficient, uncaring, immoral, violent etc.
The only difference is that feminism has taken on a theoretical, intellectualized position that naturalizes cultural ideas such as "the woman as caring mother" (edit: not the best example, I'm suggesting stronger moral authority actually, which is actually a very Victorian idea if you think about it) by using psychology, antropology etc.

Instead of saying that gender is really "makeable", feminism often emphasises its own moral superiority, while still claiming the idea of free identity.

On the use of the term Feminism vs Equality, I agree with elizabeth.

[sleepy sinner]

That is true of some types of feminism, ghostdog, for example ecofeminism (the validation of essentialised gender roles or the idea of women's inherently 'nurturing' qualities) but there are many other feminists who completely disagree with all that and refuse to employ that language. Everyone acknowledges that feminism has made mistakes. But what fascinates me is that feminism today is such an intricate, diverse and alive discourse that I have no idea why people still think they can get away with denouncing it wholsesale as dead, irrelevant or the domain of 'hairy lesbians'. People can only say that if they actually know very little about it, which is why its odd that they think they can hold sway in the debate at all.

What I find annoying in the extreme is that certain feminists CAN point out that the vast majority of violence in personal relationships is carried out by men, a fact that is borne out by centuries of testimony, WITHOUT resorting to an essentialised caricature of men as inherently "brutish". And par for the course, many of these women are ALSO involved in loving relationships with men, even as they engage in their critique of gender hierarchy. However, even when feminists acknowledge and adhere to that responsibility, the easiest response for most people is STILL to try and cast them as totalising 'man-haters' or female chauvinists. That type of response is the response of all those who are threatened on an extremely profound level by feminism and the promise of women's equality - financially, morally, personally.

[lisa]

And par for the course, many of these women are ALSO involved in loving relationships with men, even as they engage in their critique of gender hierarchy. However, even when feminists acknowledge and adhere to that responsibility, the easiest response for most people is STILL to try and cast them as totalising 'man-haters' or female chauvinists. That type of response is the response of all those who are threatened on an extremely profound level by feminism and the promise of women's equality - financially, morally, personally.


hell yes :yes: :yes:

[Narcissistic Nihilist]

However, even when feminists acknowledge and adhere to that responsibility, the easiest response for most people is STILL to try and cast them as totalising 'man-haters' or female chauvinists. That type of response is the response of all those who are threatened on an extremely profound level by feminism and the promise of women's equality - financially, morally, personally.

..or in fact, the truth, which is when people see through such prejudiced dogma and call it for what it is.

[Ghostdog]

Mind you: I said a lot of (should have said some of course, but I'm mainly talking about the popularized light-feminism that currently goes around) feminism, not all feminism.

Pop-feminism has the mark of all populist interpretation of serious theory: it loses the ontological/epistomological grounds, and just keeps the result and forcing it down everyone's gob at random.

[Jackal]

I'm not threatened by women having equality, financial stability, independence, education or whatever they want, but some feminist feel I am threatening all that by wanting to be a housewife.

Don't they? It seems my type of life is always the example of a tragic existance and coerced submission to the man. They like to add, "if a woman wants that it's fine...but they should have a choice." They don't really think it's fine.

[Narcissistic Nihilist]

I'm not threatened by women having equality, financial stability, independence, education or whatever they want, but some feminist feel I am threatening all that by wanting to be a housewife.

Don't they? It seems my type of life is always the example of a tragic existance and coerced submission to the man. They like to add, "if a woman wants that it's fine...but they should have a choice." They don't really think it's fine.

I totally agree.

I know plenty of women who have detested feminism and what it has done. They say that before they could just stay at home and let the man earn, now they have to get jobs and it pisses them off.

The dumb thing is when they claim that feminism is about equality, when it is nothing of the sort. When was the last time feminism tried to address the inequalities where women have the advantage? Simple answer, it never has. It will always be only for the female half of the species and therefore OPPOSED to equality and I am so glad that most women these days are smart enough to see through that bullshit, and are indeed rather embarrassed by the whole notion. They quite rightly see feminism as antiquated, having served its course and now only holds them back.

While the myopic and sexist view of only trying to help disadvantaged women continues, it will only create resentment from disadvantaged men and nothing will ever be acheived. Feminists need to realise that it is not only women who are disadvantaged, and to gain equality for all, it is necessary to open their minds and eyes and see the whole picture.

[Static Split Screen]

I DO dislike how if someone chooses to be a housewife they're seen as almost selling their soul. Personally, I wouldn't mind being a housewive at all when I have a kid. Better than sticking the poor thing in Daycare and paying such a bloody fortune it'd cost the same as staying home and not working. I don't think I'd want to do it forever though. Hell, I wouldn't mind if Craig becomes a househusband if I'm the one bringing in more money.

[lisa]

i did say that the man should have the choice of being the housewife, these roles shouldnt be expected they way they still are so frequently.

a great article on the bias that is still so strong today (someone on the es board posted it during a similar discussion of female musicians having to be conventionally hot to sell records): http://www.slate.com/id/2154331/

[Jackal]

Oh stop. Have you seriously been so ill treated that you need to fight for women's rights? If so tell us.

If I ever felt I wasn't treated fair, I spoke up at that moment. That's how you make people respect women, not by telling men they suck. Men don't live in a world without dissapointment, failure, or judgement, why should women?

Any man on Blamo has probably felt discrimination because of the way they look. (Except Bram!:) ) hehe.

Yeah, Aretha Franklin is so hot!

[lisa]

wtf?

[Nak Nak]

Woman is the nigger of the world

btw elisabeth and sleepy sinner :yes: great posts. the boys who are all about the term 'equalist' dont understand the defintion of feminism to begin with, from what they say in their posts. culture and society have made radical changes in half a century because of the work of feminists... we (females) would still be living like 1950 if they hadnt. to give it a new title is a joke when it means the same thing. it's disrespectful to the people who gained you the right to vote and have good jobs and have men stay home and take care of the kids etc... i cant help but feel sad for females who feel the need to call themselves equalists as it is a term fearful men use. it comes from a delusional fear that all feminists are radical and want all men to be their slaves and birth their babies.


Get a grip, would you? Your points have already been made in this thread, more articulately and civilly too. You also refrained from reading the posts you criticise, so I don't know where the meat that feeds your ire is coming from.

[Static Split Screen]

It's pretty UNEXPECTED for people to be housewives now. Both parents usually have to work now.

[Larkspur]

I don't want to marry a house. :cry:

[ramblingrose]

The perfect way to close this thread!