Religion and torment.

[Jackal]

Do you think some people are hurt by religion. Perhaps living every day in torment because they have trouble following in the right path. I wonder If they didn't hold themselves to such strict rules they may be happier.

I was actually thinking of a person on the ES board and how unhappy she is and noticed she quotes alot of the Bible and I wondered if she would be happier without religion.

[Herr Lipp]

I don;t understand bible-bashers. I'm not knocking religion, but it's supposed to help you live your life in a good way, rather than control it.

[kendra]

Of course. It's a huge source of guilt.

I wasn't even following a religion closely and I STILL felt guilty about it. I think I'm just now slowly getting it all out of my system.

[Six Ways]

Definitely. Gays, people with fetishes, people involved with people outside their religion, people who don't want to marry the people their parents have chosen, anything like that, they can all suffer under the yoke of religion, particularly when they are part of the religion themselves.

[In Dust and Ashes]

heh.
heres a thought winslow,
I've been having very sexual dreams concerning homosexuality (not saying that I'm gay, but my friends are quite convinced that I'm bi for more than just the dreams)
I have a few fetishes, which I wont mention
I'm deeply involved with people outside my religion
my parents don't arrage marriages for me, but I am in a relationship with someone that I know they wont approve of

hmm..
anything else?
I'm going to a public school that they don't approve of very much
I've adopted veiws that they dont' agree with
I've committed sins that make me ashamed and cringe when I think of them
I'm constantly facing ridicule and scorn from those that arn't in my religion
I dont fit in with most of the world because of my religion
my family is suffering heavily because of religious things that I wont get into
my parents are looked down upon for their willingness to stand by rebelious children within the christian organization that they work with
my parents have been outright ridiculed and even threatened by members of the same christian organization that they work with
my christian friends who are still overseas are in jeapordy of their lives
many of my friends and neighbors growing up were robbed, beaten, raped, or killed because they are christians

......but I know my God is the only thing that's keeping me together though this and it would be stupid for me to forsake my religion in hopes of feeling better.

[Telegram Sam]

you are so strange and I almost don't believe that you even exist

[Static Split Screen]

wooooow.

[Nak Nak]

you are so strange and I almost don't believe that you even exist


She's the fictional creation of a genius comedian.

[In Dust and Ashes]

on a sidenote, Jackal, religion, at least christianity, was not created to make anyone feel better or be happier. not once in the bible did God or anyone else say "you will have eternal happiness when you believe". on the contrary, the bible expains over and over that by putting faith in God, you will be tested--tormented, mocked, tortured, persecuted, and killed. it expamplifies many times, people who were imprisoned, stoned, crusified, exiled, beheaded, thrown to lions and to fire all for what they blieved and preached. It's not a happy way to live your life and I do not know one person who believes that. anyone that does is a fool and doesn't know what they're getting themselves into.

God made a promise to stretch his followers to their very limits with the troubles he throws at them and the only comfort he offers is that he wont give us more than he knows we can handle unless we fall away from him. nor will he ever make us endure something on our own.

[Nak Nak]

on a sidenote, Jackal, religion, at least christianity, was not created to make anyone feel better or be happier. not once in the bible did God or anyone else say "you will have eternal happiness when you believe". on the contrary, the bible expains over and over that by putting faith in God, you will be tested--tormented, mocked, tortured, persecuted, and killed. it expamplifies many times, people who were imprisoned, stoned, crusified, exiled, beheaded, thrown to lions and to fire all for what they blieved and preached. It's not a happy way to live your life and I do not know one person who believes that. anyone that does is a fool and doesn't know what they're getting themselves into.

God made a promise to stretch his followers to their very limits with the troubles he throws at them and the only comfort he offers is that he wont give us more than he knows we can handle unless we fall away from him. nor will he ever make us endure something on our own.
:spamtap:

God reminds me of the Gamemaster from GI Joe.

[Telegram Sam]

God made me dream about having a three-way with the Chuckle Brothers last night and now I am going to hell

[Fab]

:therock:not once in the bible did God or anyone else say "you will have eternal happiness when you believe". What about the whole going to heaven when you're a good Christan thing?

[Telegram Sam]

hambakmeritru, who are you and how have you managed to get away with this for so long?

[In Dust and Ashes]

:therock:What about the whole going to heaven when you're a good Christan thing?

true, but in reference to life on earth, theres no such promise.

[Dalton C Calhoun]

She's the fictional creation of a genius comedian.
I wouldn't call myself a genius. I just really liked Candide, so I thought, "What if Candide was a conservative Christian?" Well, then that's how she came about. That whole fetish thing was not my idea. I swear...:drool:

[In Dust and Ashes]

well then where the hell did it come from?

[In Dust and Ashes]

I've really got to tone down my language

and I just noticed that the user icons got moved. goodshow.

[Six Ways]

heh.
heres a thought winslow,
I've been having very sexual dreams concerning homosexuality (not saying that I'm gay, but my friends are quite convinced that I'm bi for more than just the dreams)
I have a few fetishes, which I wont mention
I'm deeply involved with people outside my religion
my parents don't arrage marriages for me, but I am in a relationship with someone that I know they wont approve of

hmm..
anything else?
I'm going to a public school that they don't approve of very much
I've adopted veiws that they dont' agree with
I've committed sins that make me ashamed and cringe when I think of them
I'm constantly facing ridicule and scorn from those that arn't in my religion
I dont fit in with most of the world because of my religion
my family is suffering heavily because of religious things that I wont get into
my parents are looked down upon for their willingness to stand by rebelious children within the christian organization that they work with
my parents have been outright ridiculed and even threatened by members of the same christian organization that they work with
my christian friends who are still overseas are in jeapordy of their lives
many of my friends and neighbors growing up were robbed, beaten, raped, or killed because they are christians

......but I know my God is the only thing that's keeping me together though this and it would be stupid for me to forsake my religion in hopes of feeling better.

Is it not selfish that you cling to your god? I mean, if it's religion that's causing all those people (including yourself) all that pain and all those problems, isn't it selfish to defend the religion because you think it keeps you together? Consider, if the religion was not there, you wouldn't need the religion to hold you together because the problems would not be happening!

I admit that religion is not the cause of all problems in everyone's life, that would be stupid, and without religion other problems would crop up, but surely in that case you should find strength to cope within yourself rather than offloading the responsibility onto a god figure? Assuming god doesn't exist, relying on the belief of god to get you though is a sign of weakness, not strength, since you cannot deal with reality. I'm not necessarily saying that's the case, but it's a damn sight easier to, like I said, offload your problems onto a god figure than to actually get stuck in and get through it yourself. I mean, it's almost like pretending the problem isn't there.

BTW, do your fetishes have to do with motorbikes? ;)

[In Dust and Ashes]

The two major causes for the problems in my life concerning religion are these:
peoples reaction to my beliefs
and spiritual happenings that are harmful yet rather solid proof that my beliefs are true.

in fact, my faith is strengthened and more evidence is gained through the trials I face than by any other means.
religion isn't about upbringing or comfort zones. religion is about truth and I've learned more about the truth from the things listed above than by anything else.
so no, it's not selfish to cling to it. it's the more logical of choices once I've seen how God has kept faithful to me and his promises and the truth of my beliefs have been proven real to me.

and by the way, yes
http://photos.motorcycle-usa.com/950_sm_black.jpg
:drool:

[In Dust and Ashes]

:cool:
"Just give me a bad motorcycle
with a man growing out of the seat
then move aside
cus I'm gonna riiiiiiiide....."

curse you winslow! now I"m never gonna get these thoughts out of my head!

[Telegram Sam]

your fetish is wanting to fuck a motorcycle?

[Jackal]

The two major causes for the problems in my life concerning religion are these:
peoples reaction to my beliefs
and spiritual happenings that are harmful yet rather solid proof that my beliefs are true.


The first one seems easy. Only your religious group needs to know anything about your religious beliefs.

I need an example of a spiritual happening that is harmful. Not to pick on it, just curios.
---
I only know 3 people that practice organized religion, and they are very active in their churches. I guess I always seem bothered by the fact that they aren't different than the rest of us. I expect more out of them. I expect them to not give in to sins, but be able to fight them. But when they do give in they seem so fucked up.

I just always thought religion was for making life better and to give you goals and rules to a clean way of living so that you didn't have to be down in the trenches with the "bad people". I also thought like Six Ways that it was like a crutch and you could "put things in the hand of God" and see what happens.

[In Dust and Ashes]

I need an example of a spiritual happening that is harmful. Not to pick on it, just curios.

honestly, I'm not going to give you one. last time such things came up, myself and others were mocked for these things and I'm not going to open myself up to that again. this topic has become much too tender to me...even more so than it was last time it was discussed on this board.

[Jackal]

Okay.

[ramblingrose]

God made me dream about having a three-way with the Chuckle Brothers last night and now I am going to hell

When you see what Craig is photoshopping you will indeed go to hell if you dream about it.

[Blue River]

Are cults classed as religions. I know technically theyre not, but i mean can they be included in this discussion because if you consider what happens in some cults, especially the ones which promise their followers a family and protection through god and so forth, they can end up totally screwed! I've read about mothers in cult groups being forced by their 'leaders' to orally stimulate their children before they go to sleep to help them get closer to god. Sorry to bring it up but i would like to know people's thoughts.

[kendra]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cult (have fun)

http://login.prospero.com/dir-login/index.asp?webtag=christiancult&lgnDST=http%3A%2F%2Fforums%2Edelphiforums%2Ecom%2Fchristiancult Some things worth reading, if you can get past all the 15 year old Atheists

http://www.scientology-kills.org/cults.htm <-- a good checklist of cult characteristics

[Telegram Sam]

Kendra, do you believe in Jesus?

[In Dust and Ashes]

http://www.scientology-kills.org/cults.htm <-- a good checklist of cult characteristics

hehe. my parents organization qualifies for all but maybe 2 or 3 of those. :D
I'm not suprised, we've always called it a cult.

[Six Ways]

I would be worried....cults fuck people up.

[In Dust and Ashes]

oh, I Know.......

[kendra]

Kendra, do you believe in Jesus?

I think he was one hell of a public speaker, and undoubtedly a very spiritual guy. Annnnnnnnd...that's about it.

[kendra]

hehe. my parents organization qualifies for all but maybe 2 or 3 of those. :D
I'm not suprised, we've always called it a cult.

Well, that's most religions (or at least religions I've come into contact with...which would be Christian and Jewish.) I'd say my parents church does most of the stuff on that list, with the exception of "inordinate amounts of money.." depends on what you define as inordinate, though. 10% of your income a year isn't a big deal to some people. For others on the other hand, it's a lot. Depends on the GUILT factor behind it (there's that word again). In my opinion, God doesn't need 10% your income. Dude is rollin' up there in Heaven.

:bag: Jackie you are a strange one. You seem simultaneously embarrassed and oddly smug about your religion. Good luck with that.

[Telegram Sam]

Jackie you are a strange one. You seem simultaneously embarrassed and oddly smug about your religion. Good luck with that.

let's hope that remark will save us another 50 pages of silly arguments

[kendra]

Highly doubtful.

[In Dust and Ashes]

:bag: Jackie you are a strange one. You seem simultaneously embarrassed and oddly smug about your religion. Good luck with that.

I think you have me confused. I'm not at all embarrassed or smug about my religion or beliefs. I am, however upset or embarrassed at some of the people around me that are associated with it. I'm not too keen on my parents organization either.
and please make that distinction between my parents organization, church, and religion (or my beliefs/faith, as it is). two of them are made up of people. the other is God.
I don't even know what you mean by smug. I poke jokes at some things...usualy the things that tick me off a lot.
the organization my parents work with is qualified as a cult, in more ways than those on the list, and it pisses me off because they are that way unconciously and no one is straightening them out. It's screwed up more kids than I can count and my only hope is that my parents can do something about it because i know they see the wrongs being made and they dont like them either.

[In Dust and Ashes]

Religion, I thought was supposed to keep people together and/or bring peace. And to answer questions of why and how we are alive?

However, it often creates more harm than good 98% of the time. What about holy wars? Yes, social lives are sometimes negatively affected by religion, but it doesn't have to be that way...how about considering that we're all alive now and we have that in common, just different opinions about why?
Some who follow teachings in the bible read into it too much or take it literally don't apply it to this modern day society. Church leaders, some of them, are very opinionated and use their own interpretations to influence others to follow their lead.

If one's religious beliefs separate them from reality or send them into leading restricted, paranoid and unenjoyable lives, then they need to take a step back and put things into perspective.

I've had relatives who lived peaceful lives and were devoutly religious because they were practical about it.

this is a very bias post and full of your personal opinions on what life should be like and the rights and wrongs involved in that. you're attempting to designate what others should believe about what they believe and when they've gone overboard.
you've oversteped yourself quite a bit.
and by the way, religion wasn't meant to be practical. Jesus was punched full of nails over it. I don't think he was trying to teach a practical way of living. read some of his teachings, I'm sure you'd get the picture.
in the book of revelations, theres a stern warning to passive christians that are "neither hot nor cold" they become luke warm and God says he'll "spit them out" of his mouth.

[Telegram Sam]

Highly doubtful.

you can always dream

[In Dust and Ashes]

sorry, I've been gone for the weekend.

Don't you agree that when wars are created over religion, that's going overboard? I know that's a little ethnocentric, but I don't care, answer it.

some religions have it in their doctrinal books to declare war. even the bible. read the old testiment, God declared wars on more nations than I can count. completely wiping out more than one. you seem to be thinking within your own boarders of morals with a strong assumption that you're right in your ways of thinking. how is that any better than someone that practices one of the religions that you so strongly feel is wrong?

I'm Protestant Christian. non-denominational, preferably, but if you want to slap a more specific lable on me, I'd probably slant more to baptist than most others.

and it IS true that the bible is often mis-interpreted or taken too seriously.

mis-interpreted, sure. though some would even deny that. but taken too seriously is something that it's not. I got bashed before for starting a debat on this same subject, but I am strongly of the opinion that religion cannot be taken to seriously. to put it frankly, religion is about life. you're goals for living, what you live for, how you live, etc. how can you take that too seriously?

peace people. And didn't Jesus say to "love thy brother" and/or "love thy neighbor"? And what about "forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who tresspass against us..." seems like the action taken in reference to that excerpt have represented the line being read in reverse.

Jesus also overturned tables in a temple out of rage, made a whip out of cords and whipped people out of the temple (Matthew 21), taught the people that it was better for a man to loose an eye or a hand than to sin (Matthew 5), and gives strong doom warnings to very particular cities who did not believe in him (Matthew 11).
Don't judge peoples actions without first studying what they claim to believe. but with that, God encourages us(fellow christians) to examine eachother's actions against the bible and if they are doing wrong, to correct them gently.

[Six Ways]

Jesus also overturned tables in a temple out of rage, made a whip out of cords and whipped people out of the temple

Doesn't that make Jesus a big hypocrite?

Also, how can any religion possibly have the arrogance to assume that they are so right that they are allowed to wage 'holy war' on another religion or nation? Surely that's a damn sight worse than atheists assuming that we should probably not be fascist nazi genocidal pigs.

[In Dust and Ashes]

Doesn't that make Jesus a big hypocrite?

no. theres a reason behind all of it, but you'd have to drop the "Jesus is all about peace and acceptance" idea to get it.

it's not arrogant to hold your faith so dearly and to believe that you know the truth and others don't. theres a conviction there that allows people to truely and honestly believe with all their might that they have found what is true and it is only reasonable that they do what they must for it. look at any of the apostles of the new testiment. most of them didnt die very nice deaths. the only one I can think of that wasn't executed was the apostle John (not John the Baptist who was beheaded).
these men took it seriously enough to die for what they believed. those that killed them believed what they believed enough to kill them. I don't think either side took anything too seriously and I don't expect anything different in my own life.

[Dalton C Calhoun]

In a hundred years, I wonder if John Lennon will be worshipped like Jesus. Of course, then things would be really confusing. The missionaries that go to the former Soviet Union would be killed because the people there would confuse Lennon with Lenin. Then, the missionaries would have to wear t-shirts that spell out Lennon. However, no one takes people in t-shirts seriously. Well, I guess Lennonology will never catch on. How sad. :cry:

[Hi There, Am Pam]

I don;t understand bible-bashers. I'm not knocking religion, but it's supposed to help you live your life in a good way, rather than control it.

Do you mean Bible-bashers, or Bible-thumpers? Just wondering what you mean by that statement (I.E., "Religion is supposed to help you, I don't understand how people could let it control them", or "Religion is supposed to help you, I don't understand why people bash it")?


I need an example of a spiritual happening that is harmful. Not to pick on it, just curios.

It always depends on the situation, as religion can provide structure, but also force a structure on a person. Here's an example of how it can go wrong:

Some people raised in very strict religious households are forced to believe that every action they make impacts their ability to make into heaven, or spend eternity in hell. For someone who truly believes this, it can produce terrifying anxiety for the rest of their life. Imagine thinking that watching a certain TV program, or even commerical, could potentially cause you to experience an eternity of pain. To someone who lacks an internal mechnism for guilt, this could help them act in ways which would be benefical. People on the opposite extreme could find the whole thing agnozing.

An another example is my own observations growing up in a weird half-religious, half-agnostic household. My dad & his friends, are to put it mildly, completely delusional (ok, I'm joking about the mildly part). In all seriousness, my dad's friends tend to assign things they consider positive to a blessing of God's will, and when things go wrong, it's just "all apart of God's plan, and we can't understand it". In essence, it pretty much speaks for itself. "We can't understand it" pretty much means that the person making such a statement doesn't understand why the situation is occuring, and prefers just to block it out. But it unfortunately means that a person might not take responsibility for his or her actions if that person believes the decision is "in God's hands".

You could read a whole lot more about that type of thing in Freudian psychology. I believe Freud wrote a book about religion.



I only know 3 people that practice organized religion, and they are very active in their churches. I guess I always seem bothered by the fact that they aren't different than the rest of us. I expect more out of them. I expect them to not give in to sins, but be able to fight them. But when they do give in they seem so fucked up.

I just always thought religion was for making life better and to give you goals and rules to a clean way of living so that you didn't have to be down in the trenches with the "bad people". I also thought like Six Ways that it was like a crutch and you could "put things in the hand of God" and see what happens.

I think people tend to "learn: that there is something ethereal about anything related to religion. Think of all the symbols & sacrements used by various churches. They're basically to reenforce the idea of divinity through the physical world. If mass amounts of people are bowing to a man holding a stick with a cross on it, and a giant phalliac shaped hat, well then, there must be something to it.

Figuratively, something like the Pope is a giant penis walking around while people bow down to the patriarchiacal symbolism.

An interesting example of how people perceive religion vs. how things might actually be, is how the Catholic Church selected texts for the New Testament. The various books that are used in the New Testament were written well after Christ died, and were selected amongst many interperations of what occured and what he might have said. So basically the Catholic Church is like playing telephone, but with a person purposely selecting the statement to fit their needs. The church intentionally selected texts which made Christ look like a deity, and deemed material which made him look just like a typical prophet/martyr as heritical.

Now believe what ever you want about Jesus, but a great deal of his legacy is filtered through so many people's hands that there is no telling who the guy was, or if he even exisited. But if a person can reem what ever positive material which could inspire them to better their life, then it doesn't matter. But to use that material politically and as a way to control people, well that is pretty far from what most people would consider "religious".

BTW, I currently believe that God is a sock, but that might change depending on the weather tomorrow. I might deem him to be a hermaphroditic cantalope if it rains tomorrow.

[In Dust and Ashes]

it's not an attempt at playing God. I don't even see how that can be interpreted as such. it's working for God. the muslims that are currently breaking loose violently are doing so to honor God becasue they believe it's what God wants them to do. in these "holy wars" everyone is looking to serve their master.

[Six Ways]

it's not arrogant to hold your faith so dearly and to believe that you know the truth and others don't. theres a conviction there that allows people to truely and honestly believe with all their might that they have found what is true and it is only reasonable that they do what they must for it. look at any of the apostles of the new testiment. most of them didnt die very nice deaths. the only one I can think of that wasn't executed was the apostle John (not John the Baptist who was beheaded).
these men took it seriously enough to die for what they believed. those that killed them believed what they believed enough to kill them. I don't think either side took anything too seriously and I don't expect anything different in my own life.

So Jacki, are you saying that in your eyes anybody has a right to kill anybody else because their religion says so?

The problem here is anyone can make up a religion at any time, and that religion will be every bit, I repeat, every single bit as valid as any other established religion. So can they then justify killing people en masse?

Am I allowed to persecute blacks, jews, gays and women because I believe arbitrarily that they are inferior to me? If so, why did anyone give a shit about any war to do with genocide?

[In Dust and Ashes]

I do not condone violence or these "holy wars". but I do understand why they do this and I acknowledge that they're doing what they believe they have to do, just as I do what I believe I have to do. We're both following our religion and I can't look down on them for it.

socially, killing people doesn't work too well. especially in our country. so that's one more agreable reason why I wouldn't allow this violence. Another obvious reason is because my religion doesn't agree with it.

ps. I wrote this while pre-occupied with something so if it doesn't make sense, I'm sorry and maybe I can clear it up later.

[Herr Lipp]

you never make sense you fucking retard.

[i]

nice succinct reply :yes:

"socially, killing people doesn't work too well."

comedic genius, indeed! :lol:

[Fab]

TBH, I agree with Jacki, if I truly believed that killing someone or war was part of my religion then I'd do it, even though I know the law and wouldn't expect to get away with it. Like she said; it's understandable but not condonable.

But yeah, it was the suffix of "too well" that made that sentence rather daft.

[In Dust and Ashes]

But yeah, it was the suffix of "too well" that made that sentence rather daft.

?

[In Dust and Ashes]

here, I came up with this in english class to maybe better explain myself. (by the way, I hate my english class)

My parents are missionaries to third world countries. In Papua New Guinea we faced danger and death from many things, including hostile tribes. My dad has met with killers, ex-cannibles and even the man that elegedly held my family up in our home and threatened to kill us. Minimus was the most natoriously dangerous man in Papua New Guinea (and still would be, if anyone knew where he was or if he was still alive) and my father personally went to his home in the name of Christ.
My grandparents on my mothers side were also missionaries (to brazil) and their likves were in danger of such things as head-hunters. At one point they lived just up the river from a very hostile tribe which my grandfather tried to wittness to by sending them gifts and things in unmanned boats down the river.
We don't kill people, but we take our faith seriously enough to constantly put ourselves in jeopardy of our lives. We know people who have died this way. I attended a closed casket funeral when I was 9 of a man who was hacked to death in PNG. We recieve news letters and prayer cards of many others who are in danger of persecution and exicution for their beliefs. but they stay in those country because they believe they're doing what God wants them to do. we all are.
It would be an insult to ask me to lighten up about my religion. it means more to me than anyone will know and it's the very reason I live.

oh and to i:
honestly, I couldn't care less about social laws and anyone that takes their faith as strongly as I take mine, would agree because our religious society is based around our beliefs and with that ideal in common the ability to function with laws that seem contrary to secular ideals is a little more apparent.

[Six Ways]

honestly, I couldn't care less about social laws and anyone that takes their faith as strongly as I take mine, would agree because our religious society is based around our beliefs and with that ideal in common the ability to function with laws that seem contrary to secular ideals is a little more apparent.

Well that IS arrogant then; you're assuming you know better than the government put in place by the majority vote of the populace.

[In Dust and Ashes]

that's not arrogant. everyone knows our society is full of horrible problems. I believe that if I were in a society that strives to honor God, it'd be more successful. unfortunately, that can't happen in a secular society since the majority (or enough people anyway) don't believe the same.
it's common sense.

[Jackal]

Wow. I erased so much.

I guess I should only say to each his own.

[kendra]

WHY IS NOT KILLING ANOTHER PERSON A SECULAR IDEAL? How about a fucking HUMAN ideal? How about trying to rise above the level of absolute shit?

God save us all, for real :O Damn.

And the whole pity party about missionaries getting killed is just appalling. That's like me strolling into a bad part of Richmond, VA and saying "ya'll should stop drive-bying each other, that's not nice," getting knifed, and then saying my "work" was so important because I was dumb enough to do that in the first place. Why the hostility, man? Maybe those people know evil so well that they know it immediately when they see it and they just prefer their own kind.

[Nak Nak]

that's not arrogant. everyone knows our society is full of horrible problems. I believe that if I were in a society that strives to honor God, it'd be more successful. unfortunately, that can't happen in a secular society since the majority (or enough people anyway) don't believe the same.
it's common sense.


I don't agree with you in the slightest. It's common sense that whether a society is secular or not there are certain rules that people will follow regardless of whether they lean on a crutch of fairytale morality or if they realise that for their society (and themselves) to prosper they need to follow the rules.

[In Dust and Ashes]

WHY IS NOT KILLING ANOTHER PERSON A SECULAR IDEAL? How about a fucking HUMAN ideal? How about trying to rise above the level of absolute shit?

Human ideal it is not. cannibles seem to have no problem killing eachother. and you know what? it works for them. they don't exactly flourish, but they sustain themselves pretty well. theres a heck of a lot of tribes that are war hungry and are enthused with the prospect of it.

secular ideal? well I suppose that's debatable. I was going more for "not specificly a religious thing." since we were discussing religions that can promote war in some way.

you're second part of that post doesn't make much sense to me, but I was certainly not asking for pity for missionaries. no offense, but I don't want any pity from you. my point with all of that was that we face danger and risk our lives for what we believe in just as these terrorists do.

[In Dust and Ashes]

I don't agree with you in the slightest. It's common sense that whether a society is secular or not there are certain rules that people will follow regardless of whether they lean on a crutch of fairytale morality or if they realise that for their society (and themselves) to prosper they need to follow the rules.

it's understandable that you'd think that. in theory, it may seem so. but live in a strictly christian community for a year and you'll know the difference. or you know, you could just study what they believe to know what their ideal community would be like. that'll show you some differences.
there are a few common rules that any society must follow in order to function, but those are relatively few.
I think the most noticable differnce in a christian community (at least the one I can think of at this moment) is that most everything is out in the open. and it's not only anyone's business, but it's their responsibility to make sure that everyone is keeping straight with the Lord.
This is actually a rule that I'm hoping to apply to my own afairs tomorrow. to a lesser extent.
I think in this day and age, in america, this is a pretty scary idea.

[Nak Nak]

it's understandable that you'd think that. in theory, it may seem so. but live in a strictly christian community for a year and you'll know the difference. or you know, you could just study what they believe to know what their ideal community would be like. that'll show you some differences.
there are a few common rules that any society must follow in order to function, but those are relatively few.
I think the most noticable differnce in a christian community (at least the one I can think of at this moment) is that most everything is out in the open. and it's not only anyone's business, but it's their responsibility to make sure that everyone is keeping straight with the Lord.
This is actually a rule that I'm hoping to apply to my own afairs tomorrow. to a lesser extent.
I think in this day and age, in america, this is a pretty scary idea.

I don't see why things should be "out in the open" though. I'd rather take my chances in a society with a small number of murderers and criminals than be affected by other people in my community.

[In Dust and Ashes]

exactly. it's a chrsitian ideal. and we have a heard time accomplishing it while living in a secular society.

[Nak Nak]

exactly. it's a chrsitian ideal. and we have a heard time accomplishing it while living in a secular society.

I understand that it would be more difficult, but I know for a fact that there are many religious/cultural/racial communities living within a secular society (mine) that manage to retain their ideals.

[In Dust and Ashes]

*reviews previous arguments to remember what's going on*

oh! ok. I think I had wandered from my origional thoughts. what I said still remains true. and I do know that there are plenty of religious communities in america, but what I was thinking of earlier were things like abortion and gay marriage. you know it's the religious people that are fighting that stuff and they're doing it because they believe it's as wrong as these peace-pushers think the war is wrong (not to mean that in such a negative way). we don't want to live under a government that allows immorality. When we do, it's hard for us to be patriotic.
this will start a whole other debate on politics and "what our country was founded on" I"m sure, but oh well. just know that I'm not really itching to get into the founding ideals of our nation.

[Nak Nak]

*reviews previous arguments to remember what's going on*

oh! ok. I think I had wandered from my origional thoughts. what I said still remains true. and I do know that there are plenty of religious communities in america, but what I was thinking of earlier were things like abortion and gay marriage. you know it's the religious people that are fighting that stuff and they're doing it because they believe it's as wrong as these peace-pushers think the war is wrong (not to mean that in such a negative way). we don't want to live under a government that allows immorality. When we do, it's hard for us to be patriotic.
this will start a whole other debate on politics and "what our country was founded on" I"m sure, but oh well. just know that I'm not really itching to get into the founding ideals of our nation.


I was led to believe that the fundamental ideals of the US were equality and liberty. So why is it ok for some people to be more equal than others, and for "liberal" to be a misused swearword?

[In Dust and Ashes]

yeah, I knew that was comming. let me just sidestep that whole mess by saying: honestly man, we don't care what the foundations of the government are. if we see something that we think is wrong, we seek to fix it. and believe it or not, we do it for the better of the nation. we are told in the bible that if a nation pleases God, it will be blessed. and we want our nation to be blessed.

[Six Ways]

I'd just like to throw in an example of a wholly religious society (although I know that no religious society should be taken as representative of any other religious society since they're all massively different). Actually, a few: Saudi Arabia, Iran, Palestine, Israel....the list goes on. Particularly the last two as a relevant example; obviously these are the kind of places we're talking about in the first place, but my point here is that they both want what's best for their nation....this seems to end up with horrific deaths on both sides.

It's not the thought that counts, Jacki.

[Nak Nak]

I'd just like to throw in an example of a wholly religious society (although I know that no religious society should be taken as representative of any other religious society since they're all massively different). Actually, a few: Saudi Arabia, Iran, Palestine, Israel....the list goes on. Particularly the last two as a relevant example; obviously these are the kind of places we're talking about in the first place, but my point here is that they both want what's best for their nation....this seems to end up with horrific deaths on both sides.

It's not the thought that counts, Jacki.

Not only those examples. There are countless examples of almost wholly religious societies fucking themselves and other nations up.



(BTW I'm playing Civ 4 as Russia, they're Confucians!)

[motorcyclemptiness]

My question is, how can you meet someone who "elegedly" held your family captive? Haven't you already met him while you were being held?

[In Dust and Ashes]

Winslow, I don't see anything wrong with that. they're two religions fixed against eachother from the start. it's a war that We (as christians, jews, and muslims) are all aware of and accept; and will keep fighting until the end of the earth. litterally. It's been prophesized to be that way. people will die and it'll get worse. but thats just the way it is.
I havn't met a christian yet who is really horrified by the war and that's because we all know God is in charge of it all and we've been given a pretty big hint on how it's gonna end.

[In Dust and Ashes]

Not only those examples. There are countless examples of almost wholly religious societies fucking themselves and other nations up.

too true. I've been in one. it happens for different reasons. usually some sort of falling away from God.

[In Dust and Ashes]

My question is, how can you meet someone who "elegedly" held your family captive? Haven't you already met him while you were being held?

when we were held up, it was just my mom, my little brother and I along with two others that arn't in our family. My dad actually met with him, peacefully in his village home before that happend, but after he had already ransacked others around us, raped a few of my neighbors, and escaped from prison several times.

[Nak Nak]

I havn't met a christian yet who is really horrified by the war and that's because we all know God is in charge of it all and we've been given a pretty big hint on how it's gonna end.

Matt.

My friend John, who is a protestant.

[In Dust and Ashes]

ok...

[Nak Nak]

ok...
I suppose I was just pointing out that your view of religion seemed pretty simplified. It's not at all like there's a united front or anything.

[In Dust and Ashes]

that is true. but there are a huge number of people that think like i do and you have to understand that.

[kendra]

Yeah, and the craziness keeps on keepin' on! D:

[In Dust and Ashes]

nice imput, kendra. keep it up! :):yes:

[kendra]

lol

[Squirrel]

Gay marriage always seems to me like such an arbitrary thing to be opposed to.

[Jackal]

I think the most noticable differnce in a christian community (at least the one I can think of at this moment) is that most everything is out in the open. and it's not only anyone's business, but it's their responsibility to make sure that everyone is keeping straight with the Lord.


What a riot! (except the perfect cult you belong too, of course!) Every Christian I have even known hides their little secrets from the church. Secular people hide secrets too.

I'm positive every person has at least one truth about themselves that they would never tell anyone, knowing they would be persecuted for it. I think some of them haven't even established what it is.

If God is in charge of everything and has a giant plan, then why do anything? If the end is done, then our actions and lives have no consequences or meaning. FOOD FIGHT!!!!

[In Dust and Ashes]

Gay marriage always seems to me like such an arbitrary thing to be opposed to.

I really dont want to get into a debate on this at all, but I would like to know what you mean by that statement.

[Nak Nak]

I really dont want to get into a debate on this at all, but I would like to know what you mean by that statement.
He means it's a pointless thing to be opposed to, which it is.

[In Dust and Ashes]

Every Christian I have even known hides their little secrets from the church. Secular people hide secrets too.

I think you'd be suprised at how much people do tell to their church. of course it changes from here to there and everywhere, and you'd have to admit you don't know the majority of christians.
biblically speaking, we're supposed to share everything with others so that we may be upheld/encouraged/corrected to be in truth and righteousness. early chruches were better at doing this because their culture allowed it to be so. third world countries are MUCH better at doing this for that same reason. America has this as a problem and it's one of the main reasons I dislike this culture.

If God is in charge of everything and has a giant plan, then why do anything? If the end is done, then our actions and lives have no consequences or meaning. FOOD FIGHT!!!!

thats a hard topic to get into. I understand it to some extent, but theres a lot that is far above me.
for basics without explination:
what we do, we do for God--to honor God, to glorify God, to show God how much we love him. that is the meaning of our actions. God's plan for the world is by no means reliant on our actions, but he uses us to do his work. In that, God is praised.

[In Dust and Ashes]

He means it's a pointless thing to be opposed to, which it is.

yeah...that really wasn't helpful, but thanks.

[Nak Nak]

yeah...that really wasn't helpful, but thanks.

How wasn't it?

[kendra]

Sucked in, Craig! Elaborate on your argument! (:cry: :cry: :cry: )

[Nak Nak]

I was assuming that she asked Mark that question because she didn't know what arbitrary meant.

[In Dust and Ashes]

America has this as a problem and it's one of the main reasons I dislike this culture.

I gotta correct that.
I always bash americans cus I hate them so, but really I have a huge problem with keeping secrets. right now, I'm too far in them and I'm really trying hard to get out.

and yes, Nak Nak, you just reworded what he said. I know what his words mean, I was looking more for a why. but please, don't make an argument for it. I'm not interested in arguing homosexuality, I just wanted to know why you think it's pointless to disagree with it.

[In Dust and Ashes]

I was assuming that she asked Mark that question because she didn't know what arbitrary meant.

dictionary.com is my friend :):yes:

[Nak Nak]

and yes, Nak Nak, you just reworded what he said. I know what his words mean, I was looking more for a why. but please, don't make an argument for it. I'm not interested in arguing homosexuality, I just wanted to know why you think it's pointless to disagree with it.

Well ok, I just feel that it isn't anyone else's business. It's a natural occurance.

[In Dust and Ashes]

that's more of an argument to allow for gay marrage. I still don't understand why it's futile to oppose it.

[kendra]

Okay, serious question: How would the world be a better place, in your estimate (or the "Christian" estimate), if homosexuals were not permitted to have a legally binding contract so that they could do things like share insurance policies, get tax breaks, and be able to inherit their dead partner's belongings?

We'll just assume you aren't homophobic because homophobes usually have an entirely different agenda (i.e. all fags should die).

[In Dust and Ashes]

speaking for myself and those that agree with me (in other words, I can't be held responsible for respresenting all christians) we aren't concerned with their legal abilitys to do whatever. theres other things that could be done to help that. our mindset is this: homosexuality is a biblical sin and a pretty major one at that. allowing for gay marrage not only encourages it, but allows it to violate the most religiously sacred relationship in christianity.

honestly, I don't know where marriage has it's roots. I've seen that even isolated tribes have not only marrages, but huge ceremonies for them. but in this culture, and considering the way in which we practice marriage, it's credited as being a christian thing and it's one thing that we do not want violated.

all that is to answer your question. I know it's very controversial and I know it has the potential of offending many many people. so please, do what you want with what I've said, but I don't want to start a debate. it'll be one that I'll quickly drop out of, for sure.

[Nak Nak]

speaking for myself and those that agree with me (in other words, I can't be held responsible for respresenting all christians) we aren't concerned with their legal abilitys to do whatever. theres other things that could be done to help that. our mindset is this: homosexuality is a biblical sin and a pretty major one at that. allowing for gay marrage not only encourages it, but allows it to violate the most religiously sacred relationship in christianity.


It isn't like there'd be a homo plague if gay marriage is allowed.

[kendra]

Yeah I guess the argument is just that allowing the marriage is accepting homosexuality into mainstream society, whereas Christians would prefer it to still carry around the SIN label. It definitely wouldn't decrease the frequency of homosexuality. Gay people are still gonna be born, go through puberty, realize that they are gay, and have gay sex. It's mostly the label that people are up in arms about as far as I can see, because can't gay couples have legally binding partnerships already? If you say the "M" word suddenly everyone is quivering in their shoes because you drag God into the fray - and I also think that Christians are offended by the thought that homosexuals actually do love one another just like real people!!!1 and that they're not all slathering ne'er-do-wells, pedophiles, and nymphomaniacs.

[kendra]

Oh & she posted s'thing else that was interesting...homosexuality as being one of the biggest sins in the Bible. I'd like to see a list that says "this is worse than this is worse than this"...cos honestly I don't see why people are spending so much energy on consensual, loving relationships when there are murderers and rapists running around. God's Project Managers suck ass - let's get some priorities set, people!

[Nak Nak]

Oh & she posted s'thing else that was interesting...homosexuality as being one of the biggest sins in the Bible. I'd like to see a list that says "this is worse than this is worse than this"...cos honestly I don't see why people are spending so much energy on consensual, loving relationships when there are murderers and rapists running around. God's Project Managers suck ass - let's get some priorities set, people!

Brilliant point.

I guess I was thinking about the issue way too logically.

[In Dust and Ashes]

tasteful, kendra, real tasteful. I especially love how you show you outstanding amount of knowledge on the christian doctrine.

[Nak Nak]

What do you know about the Nephilim? I've been dying to talk to a real christian about them.

[kendra]

What was distasteful about what I said? All I know about Christians was being raised as one for some 20 years, and being around them enough to creep me right the crap out!

[In Dust and Ashes]

that means nothing to me. you can be raised as a christian for 40 years and still know squat and you're previous posts showed nothing but disdain. ironic since you were trying point out chrsitians lack of acceptance with others.

and Nak Nak, are those the ones in the old testiment that were acredited to being sons of demons? I'm not too familiar with them.

[Nak Nak]

and Nak Nak, are those the ones in the old testiment that were acredited to being sons of demons? I'm not too familiar with them.

Actually the sons of angels on human women. They fought wars with each other for many years. Some people think they still exist and live among the populace.

[In Dust and Ashes]

right, but they were angels that fell from heaven, right? those would be demons.

like I said, I know very little about them. They were said to be giants. I think I assumed that Goliath was one of them, but I'd have to look through the bible to find that out. heh. with that logic, anyone over 7 foot could be one. ;)

[Nak Nak]

right, but they were angels that fell from heaven, right? those would be demons.

like I said, I know very little about them. They were said to be giants. I think I assumed that Goliath was one of them, but I'd have to look through the bible to find that out. heh. with that logic, anyone over 7 foot could be one. ;)

I'm not sure if they were really demons in the normal sense of the word ie: they weren't evil or anything. I concede that you could call them fallen because did something they shouldn't have done though.

I think most of what is written about them is detailed in the Book of Enoch.
Yes, it was deemed likely that goliath was one or the descendant of one. A few other characters in the bible are thought of as nephilim but I can't remember their names.

[In Dust and Ashes]

it'd definately be something to study, but I lack an interest in it. sorry.

[kendra]

that means nothing to me. you can be raised as a christian for 40 years and still know squat and you're previous posts showed nothing but disdain. ironic since you were trying point out chrsitians lack of acceptance with others.

I accept Christians who accept others - and they do exist. Your faith on the other hand . . . there's a lot going on there that is on the opposite end of the spectrum of good, that to me it completely eclipses whatever positive effects it does have on the world. No one person or one method is ever gonna be perfect, but the fact that it's lauded as the only way to do things (or you're damned) is absurd and destructive.

And I still don't know what was so tasteless about the above posts - the majority of Christians I've spoken to about homosexuality DO have an extremely ignorant and negative view of homosexuals.

[Jackal]

I gotta correct that.
but really I have a huge problem with keeping secrets. right now, I'm too far in them and I'm really trying hard to get out.

What??? OMG! I thought you didn't keep secrets from your church. You are on the "super sinner" list this week.

[In Dust and Ashes]

I accept Christians who accept others - and they do exist. Your faith on the other hand . . . there's a lot going on there that is on the opposite end of the spectrum of good, that to me it completely eclipses whatever positive effects it does have on the world. No one person or one method is ever gonna be perfect, but the fact that it's lauded as the only way to do things (or you're damned) is absurd and destructive.

And I still don't know what was so tasteless about the above posts - the majority of Christians I've spoken to about homosexuality DO have an extremely ignorant and negative view of homosexuals.

sorry, I didn't mean to provoke an arugment. I was just upset that you attack my viewpoint and assert yours as being correct over mine after I, even in this thread, have had to defend myself against being called arrogant for beleiving that what I believe is right.

[kendra]

Well, I'm done here anyway. You have a life of arguing ahead of you I s'pose. I'm just gonna go simmah in my fence sittin' agnosticism and look forward to purgatory . . . aw hell, the Catholics got rid of it, didn't they? :oh:

[Jackal]

Does anyone absolutely, 100% to their very core, believe they are totally right about what they believe in?

[Nak Nak]

Does anyone absolutely, 100% to their very core, believe they are totally right about what they believe in?
I do.

[In Dust and Ashes]

I do to the extent that I still have questions and doubts, but I've learned that I can trust God for those and he responds to them. So really, I believe enough to trust God for what I don't believe, know, or understand. if that makes sense.

[kendra]

I know enough to know that I don't know anything. Which is why atheists and fundamentalists are equally ridiculous IMO.

[i]

Atheism makes a lot more sense than fundamentalism to me because fundamentalism is so specific. And you can't really have atheism without recognised religion in the first place.

[Six Ways]

Atheism makes a lot more sense than fundamentalism to me because fundamentalism is so specific. And you can't really have atheism without recognised religion in the first place.

Pwntd, Kendra!

But yeah, I agree with Will, atheism is a lot more sensible. For one thing, atheism doesn't encourage you to kill other people based upon your arbitrary beliefs; in fact, that's the beauty of atheism - it doesn't encourage you to do anything. If nothing else, that's why atheism is a damn sight better than fundamentalism. It lets you make your own mind up.

But there are other reasons why atheism is far more sensible. If there is no reason to believe in something or disbelieve in something, why believe in it? What I mean by this is, if there i no reason to believe in something, occam's razor states that it's inherently more sensible to not believe in it. If there weren't people who believed it arbitrarily, no-one would believe it or even think of it since there's no evidential reason to, so the natural state as it were is non-belief.

[Nak Nak]

The universe is too huge for the possibility of Godlike creatures to be completely dismissed. That's not to say that there's one that created Earth and its neighbours, or even one anywhere near our part of the universe. If one did exist around these parts, I wouldn't worship it unless it threatened my life directly!

[Spaced]

The universe is too huge for the possibility of Godlike creatures to be completely dismissed. That's not to say that there's one that created Earth and its neighbours, or even one anywhere near our part of the universe. If one did exist around these parts, I wouldn't worship it unless it threatened my life directly!


For me, the almost incomprehensible scale of the universe, and infinite complexities of its working speaks against the existence of a creator with an ordered creation. Why build a massive city and then put all that you care about in a tiny box?

[Nak Nak]

For me, the almost incomprehensible scale of the universe, and infinite complexities of its working speaks against the existence of a creator with an ordered creation. Why build a massive city and then put all that you care about in a tiny box?

I don't really mean what I think you think I mean. I was thinking of a smaller scale, a smaller god, so to speak. I wasn't speaking in relation to any specific god either.

[Spaced]

I don't really mean what I think you think I mean. I was thinking of a smaller scale, a smaller god, so to speak. I wasn't speaking in relation to any specific god either.

I get what you mean about the small scale and all, but if this mini-god just created his part of the universe, who does the rest, and what influence would he/she/it have over it? Do you include the possibility of mutiple mini-gods?

[Nak Nak]

I get what you mean about the small scale and all, but if this mini-god just created his part of the universe, who does the rest, and what influence would he/she/it have over it? Do you include the possibility of mutiple mini-gods?
Of course I do. I think of them more as organisms than "Gods" with any religious/spiritual significance. I think there's a possibility of them existing, but not an overall creator.

[kendra]

For me, the almost incomprehensible scale of the universe, and infinite complexities of its working speaks against the existence of a creator with an ordered creation. Why build a massive city and then put all that you care about in a tiny box?

Why even get as specific as an ordered creation? What if there's just a higher creative power who's completely chaotic and insane? I don't think that's too impossible; it all depends on what you're going to pin "higher" or "deity" on.

[Spaced]

Why even get as specific as an ordered creation? What if there's just a higher creative power who's completely chaotic and insane? I don't think that's too impossible; it all depends on what you're going to pin "higher" or "deity" on.

If you're going to reduce god to some unconscious life force rather than some dedicated being of creation, then yes, it's impossible to consider the likelihood of it exsiting one way or another. That though, is so far removed from the original concept of the omnipotent creator with the plan for his creation, that it's an entirely different argument.

[Six Ways]

That though, is so far removed from the original concept of the omnipotent creator with the plan for his creation, that it's an entirely different argument.

Exactly, we're not even talking about the kind of god that has a religion now. We're just talking about a powerful (if insane) alien.

[Herr Lipp]

Kendra: excellent point re: atheists/fundamentalists. Die-hards from both camps are equally ignorant buffoons.

[kendra]

Exactly, we're not even talking about the kind of god that has a religion now. We're just talking about a powerful (if insane) alien.

Jeez, that's kind of harsh guys. What about the Scientologists?

[Six Ways]

Kendra: excellent point re: atheists/fundamentalists. Die-hards from both camps are equally ignorant buffoons.

Why? See the arguments against this above. There is absolutely no reason to believe in a god, and many personal and pragmatic benefits from specifically not believing in a god. Added to my previous points, an atheist has no reason to feel guilty or even think about possibly feeling guilty for being homosexual, or any of those other things religions say. An agnostic surely can feel the urge to play it safe since they think a god 'might' exist?