Muzzle A Single?

[Chaoseffect]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thirty-Three_%28song%29
Anyone ever heard of Muzzle being a single but then the band changed it to thirty-three because Jimmy Chamberlin was fired?

[Liam-M]

um...cant remember. i know there was a promo release of it though. it was a yellow cover

[RobinB84]

Yeah interesting story. Never knew that before but there is a promo indeed..

Check this out:

http://www.smashingpumpkins.com.ar/misc/discos/muzzle.jpg

[Daysleeper]

Cool....would have made a good single me thinks...and I guess the b-sides would have been different too, seeing as the b-sides always tried ti fit into the feeling/tone of the lead single.

[Fab]

I think I heard that too.

I never read the SP wiki page before, but this surprised me:
The music video to Taday, directed by Stephane Sednaoui, brought even more mainstream success to the band. Shot in black and white and then colored manually... Coloured manually? Doesn't look it to me, maybe I'll have to go watch again.

[Daysleeper]

Originally posted by Daysleeper
Cool....would have made a good single me thinks...and I guess the b-sides would have been different too, seeing as the b-sides always tried ti fit into the feeling/tone of the lead single.

I guess TAFL doesn't sound alot like thirty three...oh well...

[Cool As Ice Cream]

TAFL ??? :hate:

don't make me go all yelling and screaming about SP abbreviations again!

[Daysleeper]

Originally posted by Cool As Ice Cream
TAFL ??? :hate:

don't make me go all yelling and screaming about SP abbreviations again!

whoops :-o

TAFH

[XenonDreams]

i always thought muzzle was just a radio single, and that was always the intention...

and i always assumed it wasn't a full out single because that would have required a video, and figured billy didn't want to "ruin" the meaning of the song by attaching it to a video.

or something,

[Eye]

I think I remember hearing that Muzzle was intended to be the new single instead of Thirty-Three but it didn't do well enough with test audiences for radio stations, although that could have just been speculation.

If you remember, they also released radio promos for To Sheila and Crestfallen during the Adore Era but never released CD singles or videos for this. I of the Mourning shared a similar fate, but I think in that case that's what they intended, as Billy referred to it an interview as the next 'single' in quotes or something to that effect. I am guessing they had a limited budget, due to the 'poor sales' of Machina up to that point and the relatively poor sales of Adore previous to that. So I guess they had tried to squeeze another single in there, but left the budget up to making the Try, Try, Try video.

[Joliet's Green Onions]

the WIKI page also say that money ran out for adore so that is why those two songs weren't full on singles


also says Let me give the world to you would have been the single had M2 been a 'real' album

[Asher]

It's still played on 'BCN sometimes. Walker stood in when they played it on Conan; I was going to use the rationale that if they played it on TV then it was a single, but "I of the Mourning" debunks that. I think it's just a matter of how the song opens; out of anything in the catalogue, that first note bothers me. I steal from Blake that MCIS had strength in its softer moments, which would explain Thirty-Three being released instead.

Also, out of all the songs on MCIS, it is the only one without drums (The title track technically not being a song since there are no words, but an instrumental piece), which means since he's not in the song, no big deal that he's not in the video. Also, should they have appeared on TV again and asked to play the new single, you don't need a drummer. If Virgin dictated that Thirty-Three be released as a single, this would be of advantage- your act can go out and play without worrying about who will sit in the drumchair that night. It may not have gone quite that way, but it's plausible.

[i]

Nicer scan here:

http://www.my-mistake.net/infinitepics/art/art085.jpg

[Cool As Ice Cream]

Originally posted by Chaoseffect
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thirty-Three_%28song%29
Anyone ever heard of Muzzle being a single but then the band changed it to thirty-three because Jimmy Chamberlin was fired? After the firing of Jimmy Chamberlin, the single was changed to "Thirty-Three", most likely because it is one of the few songs on the album that doesn't feature any drums. Some have gone on to say that a music video was actually filmed for "Muzzle" with Chamberlin, but was never released. The band went on to perform "Muzzle" for their next television appearance on Late Night with Conan O'Brien with replacement drummer, Matt Walker. Ok, maybe Muzzle was supposed to be the next single. But this explanation sounds made up. Someone probably invented a possible explanation and then decided to sell it as truth on a wiki. The story doesn't make any sense.

[Fab]

I think if a video had been filmed for it, at least clips of it would exist. If a load of people in a big company are involved, it's impossible for stuff not to get out given enough time.

[Asher]

Originally posted by Cool As Ice Cream
Ok, maybe Muzzle was supposed to be the next single. But this explanation sounds made up. Someone probably invented a possible explanation and then decided to sell it as truth on a wiki. The story doesn't make any sense.
It seems entirely appropriate to me that choosing Thirty-Three over Muzzle because it has no drums is a valid criteria in the eyes of the record company, but it probably wasn't the sole reason. I don't see the explanation as made up, just incomplete. Executives at Virgin would consider the following:
1. Which song would help sell more copies of the album? Somebody made the decision that Thirty-Three would do so more than Muzzle. Why? This is where it is unclear and pure speculation. I would be curious to look at radio airplay data- both songs are played on the radio, so which ones draw more listeners? I would guess that more people would flick Muzzle off in the first five seconds than Thirty-Three.

2. With a band member kicked out, royalties may become an issue- if he didn't participate on the song, then on what grounds could he [Chamberlin]sue for royalties paid by radio stations when they play Thirty-Three? Until the legal shit was cleared up, releasing a song which he didn't play on bought the company time to resolve any legal issues it may have been facing at that time. It was smart business.

3. Thirty-Three was released as the last single off MCIS, and amongst the singles, 1979 and Thirty-Three are sonically the most similar to the next project, Adore. Creatively, the band was heading into more subdued waters, even with Chamberlin. For example, Love, Cupid de Locke, Galapogos, Take Me Down, Thirty-Three, In the Arms of Sleep, 1979... all move away from the driving guitar rock sound with which they secured their record deal, with the earlier singles I am One, Cherub Rock, Rocket, BWBW, Zero... with Disarm and the cover of Landslide they began to move into more acoustic territory and they did so gradually, taking their success at each attempt as reinforcement to continue. Disarm was huge for them, so they were more confident that they could quiet down and released 1979. When 1979 went well, why not try Thirty-Three next? That seems to me at least to be the creative direction they were heading in. With Chamberlin gone, they released Thirty-Three to test the waters again to see if they could still be accepted without having to play metal. I propose that if it was for creative reasons, then Corgan and co. had a vague idea of what direction they wanted to go in with Adore already... by releasing Thirty-Three, it would have market tested the general public's response to a more or less acoustic, electronica-tinged SP; Thirty-Three was accepted, so they proceeded to make Adore confident that it would still be fairly well-recieved, which it was- it didn't replicate the success of MCIS, but pretty much any other band would be exstatic to sell 2 million copies of any of their albums.

Also, we are ignoring the idea that maybe the band and the company just liked Thirty-Three better. I would happen to agree with Fab that if there is footage in existance, at least a glimpse of it would have been leaked as a promo or as a tester for audiences or Mtv or something. As forbidden as it is to talk of the last show, video for one song is in circulation, and audio for the whole night can be obtained if you look for it.

[Cool As Ice Cream]

there's a lot of bullshit on those wiki pages. that is all.

[ingvaldo]

I seriously doubt a video of Muzzle has been made. And I don't think that Jimmy leaving has anything to to do with this.

I think Billy wanted to release Muzzle. Virgin said, OK lets see how the radio promo does... It didn't do well.. sorry Billy, but we can't go trough with this, how about 33?

[Cool As Ice Cream]

http://www.my-mistake.net/infinitepics/art/art085.jpg

i own this one. :) omg leetness overload :cry:

[Joliet's Green Onions]

i like that font

[Asher]

Originally posted by Cool As Ice Cream
there's a lot of bullshit on those wiki pages. that is all. Agreed.

[Eye]

You could never be certain with user added material based websites, sometimes its right, sometimes it's dead wrong. But yeah, if there was actual Muzzle video out there, we would have seen it. After all, we did get the I Am One video on the Greatest Hits DVD, which I never even knew existed. I wonder how many people 'in the know' in the SP fan online community actually new this existed or did not know, for that matter.

I remember when I went to my first Pumpkins concert in Winnipeg in '96, there was some girl behind the group I was with claiming that SP was in the process of doing a new video for Zero (the concert was in September), claiming the Pumpkins were unhappy with the way it turned out. I was thinking to myself at the time "Sure, sure...that's really plausible considering the original video was filmed in May of that year-why would they wait that long to do a 'do-over' video and it was directed by Billy himself" (or was it Yelena, I forget. I know that she directed Thirty-Three).

Anyways, it should be kept in mind that was just some random chick in the upper deck of Winnipeg Arena who had shaven her head to try to get front row tickets for the show for a radio contest. That might have been understandable if it weren't for the ridiculousness that she appeared to have colored the remaining the bits of hair on her scalp blue-I guess to try to look like D'arcy from the Bullet video but with a shaved head hahahaha

[Muzzle84]

I was gonna say I heard it on BCN a few months ago or something. I remember when they played it back in the day too on the radio. While we are on the muzzle topic, let me say that if I were to pick one song to represent The Smashing Pumpkins it would be that song. I am not saying it is their best song, but I think it really represents the band and what they were about.

Originally posted by Asher
It's still played on 'BCN sometimes. Walker stood in when they played it on Conan; I was going to use the rationale that if they played it on TV then it was a single, but "I of the Mourning" debunks that. I think it's just a matter of how the song opens; out of anything in the catalogue, that first note bothers me. I steal from Blake that MCIS had strength in its softer moments, which would explain Thirty-Three being released instead.

Also, out of all the songs on MCIS, it is the only one without drums (The title track technically not being a song since there are no words, but an instrumental piece), which means since he's not in the song, no big deal that he's not in the video. Also, should they have appeared on TV again and asked to play the new single, you don't need a drummer. If Virgin dictated that Thirty-Three be released as a single, this would be of advantage- your act can go out and play without worrying about who will sit in the drumchair that night. It may not have gone quite that way, but it's plausible.

[Mutron Biphase]

Originally posted by Muzzle84
I was gonna say I heard it on BCN a few months ago or something. I remember when they played it back in the day too on the radio. While we are on the muzzle topic, let me say that if I were to pick one song to represent The Smashing Pumpkins it would be that song. I am not saying it is their best song, but I think it really represents the band and what they were about.

I hear Rocket and Muzzle quite frequently on WBCN.

[Atomsk Iscariot]

Originally posted by Asher
Agreed. I feel the need to delete that "Judas Ur" bullshit.

[Atomsk Iscariot]

Originally posted by Atomsk Iscariot
I feel the need to delete that "Judas Ur" bullshit. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judas_0

And so I did.

[Cool As Ice Cream]

Thank you so much!

[Cool As Ice Cream]

Once I deleted a part where someone explained that the acoustic session at Reel Time Studios in late 1989 is also known as the Black Session.

:rolleyes:

[ehwilliams84]

yeh i own this promo too, i got it for 20 bucks in memphis. that's the only place i/ve ever seen it other than ebay.

[Cool As Ice Cream]

$20 is rather expensive.