Language = mind?

[In Dust and Ashes]

my Approaches to Literature teacher has a quote on the wall that says:
"The limits of my language are the limits of my mind. All I know is what I have words for. --Ludwig Wittgenstein"

my question is:
is your mind really limited by your language?
or
is your language limited by your mind?

I've been working on arguments for both sides, but my opinion falls on the latter option. I'd like to see what others say before I make a move to defend either.

[Nak Nak]

Mind is limited by language. In 200 years we'll be communicating using complex thoughtform glyphs which can express more information than paragraphs of words could produce.

[Narcissistic Nihilist]

They arent two sides of a coin. It isnt one v the other. They are confined by each other. It should really replace mind with thought to be more accurate.

Language and thought develop together. The power of thought is entirely limited to language as you can cannot express thoughts, either intra- or inter-personally, about things you cannot describe.

Likewise, what you can describe and, probably most obviously, your vocab. is dependant on your knowledge and thought of many words.

[Fab]

Yes, the main reason we've become so advanced as a species is because of language.

[Squirrel]

Alright, sanity. Put THIS (http://www.quantumbiocommunication.com/consciousness/at-last-scientist-are-discovering-the-soul.html) in your pipe and smoke it.

[In Dust and Ashes]

I have a vague idea that the brain and mind are two seperate things.
"soul" is something else. it implies a lot of things that no one is even very clear on and mostly religious things, no?

I had a teacher once who refused to say he believes in the Soul, but he did believe in "spirits" and ghosts. "essences" perhaps.
it's a tricky word to use and I'm rather particular about people that use it.

[Squirrel]

I had a teacher who refused to believe in dinosaurs.

[In Dust and Ashes]

haha! i knew a woman that was like that. and wouldn't let her kids believe in them too.

she was also the lady that wouldn't let her kids play with trolls because they were satanic and naked (though the two are not directly linked)

[Herr Lipp]

Originally posted by Fab
Yes, the main reason we've become so advanced as a species is because of language.

I think language is more of a product of species development, rather than vice versa. Expression of thoughts is just swell, but it doesn't really matter if you can't express what you're feeling, doesn't stop you having those feelings. It's not like you cannot experience lust say, without knowing what the word "lust" means, as it's a chemical reaction.

Apes and monkeys have a vast range of emotions you can pick up through body language and sound, for example.

[Jackal]

I think limited language skills can limit the abilitiy to express your mind well.

If you have a great mind you'll be smart enough to get around that.

[Herr Lipp]

Oh of course it does Allison. But all expression (body language, crying etc) is language of sorts. My point is, that just because you can't express teh feelings, doesnt mean you can;t have them.

And this thread isn't titled Language = Expression, hence my comments.

The following feelings I think you can have without having to think in your mind what you are feeling if you see what I mean:

Happiness, Sadness, Fear, Excitement....

and ones I think you would need to know a language to express:

Remorse, Guilt, Hate, Chagrin

[Jackal]

Body language/ones actions are more accurate than words, I think!

I know I jumped to conclusions about the expression of it. My bad.
I agree, and you can also think things to be happy and sad.

So do you think without being taught we wouldn't feel guilt, remorse etc.?

I think we wouldn't.

I think a mind is limited by the language. Taking out the expression of it or body language aspect.

[Herr Lipp]

Yeah without expression you're limited to sex, eating and running away. Two of those are two of my all time favourite activities, but you could so get bored of them if there was nothing else in life!

I always thought that foreign people thought in their mothe tongue. But my German teacher at school told me that she had learned English so well, she thought more in English than in German. Whether that was purposeful at first, i.e. to improve her English, I don;t know, but years into her teaching career she was still doing it. It's weird.

[Herr Lipp]

I liked Frau Copus. She used to have PMT sometimes as we were sometimes mischevous, but she was a nice woman. I killed my GCSE (age 16 compulsary exam) too, got an 'A' in it, so she must've been a good teacher, as I'm no genius.

[Jackal]

I'm not sure I could ever get bored with sex and eating! But add tv, and I'm set! Hey, that's my life now! :) Ha ha.

I would expect good grades from you. I don't care what people say on here.

[Herr Lipp]

Thanks dude. I don't let people bother me! I just have a bad habit of talking a load of crap when I'm bored! But some people really use Blamo as an extension to their social life, and I don;t want it for that!! I know you're the same that's why you don't always go on about your family etc and are just out for the craic (a laugh), as the Irish would say.

[In Dust and Ashes]

Originally posted by Herr Lipp
But all expression (body language, crying etc) is language of sorts.

"All I know is what I have words for." ----Ludwig Wittgenstein

[Fab]

I'm so tired, I think I'm disagreeing with Fraser sort of, but I really have no idea why.

[ramblingrose]

Originally posted by Squirrel
Alright, sanity. Put THIS (http://www.quantumbiocommunication.com/consciousness/at-last-scientist-are-discovering-the-soul.html) in your pipe and smoke it.

I clicked on the link and saw the word "quantum" and immediately shut the box because my brain was crying. What's it about?

and I don't know what I think about the topic because I don't really understand it, I have stupidity-related problems with this sort of thing. My mind is limited by my mind, I think.

[Narcissistic Nihilist]

Originally posted by Herr Lipp
it doesn't really matter if you can't express what you're feeling, doesn't stop you having those feelings. It's not like you cannot experience lust say, without knowing what the word "lust" means, as it's a chemical reaction.
But that is just emotion and instinct, not knowledge and what you KNOW.

You can feel something but not know about it.

[Squirrel]

Originally posted by ramblingrose
I clicked on the link and saw the word "quantum" and immediately shut the box because my brain was crying. What's it about?

I honestly couldn't say. I read a bit of it and the scientist seemed to be saying that memories don't live in our heads, but pass through them from somewhere else or something. And because it's quantum mechanics, he's presumably talking about another dimension. Then I think I had a seizure.

[Herr Lipp]

Originally posted by Fab
I'm so tired, I think I'm disagreeing with Fraser sort of, but I really have no idea why.

:lol:

hambakmeritu: surely when you put your hand in a fire you KNOW it's fucking hot and don't need words. And I dont think "AAAARRRRRRRRRGGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHH" is actually a word either!

[In Dust and Ashes]

I don't get why you're laughing, but ok...
I'll flow with your argument.
when you stick your hand in a fire, what do you know and why?
I guess that's kind of a trick question because what you know, you will tell me in words (or not tell me) and so in that, you are proving my point that all you know is what you have words for. if you think you know something that you dont have words for, what is it, exactly that you know? (again, a trick question, because you cant explain without words)

[Squirrel]

It's that old semiotics argument about "What makes a chair a chair?"

[In Dust and Ashes]

I think it runs a bit deeper than that.

[Herr Lipp]

I'm laughing at Fab, hence the quote box, dumbass.

I can feel pain without using words you idiot. It's a fucking electrical signal from my burning hand, up my spine, to my brain. I instinctively will pull my hand away to get away from the pain. All that is done without any mental commentary with myself, or verbal commentary with someone else.

You're asking me to "tell" you how I feel pain, which of course I can't do without using words. But you're a big fucking idiot if you think that pain has to be verbal. It's an instinct we share with hundreds of non-verbal animals.

[Narcissistic Nihilist]

You miss the point entirely.

If you have never come across fire before, or never been told about it, you have no idea it will cause pain.

Even afterwards, being burned doesnt mean you know about it. You dont know why or how. Its not knowledge, its instinct that tells you to avoid it, because it cause pain.

[In Dust and Ashes]

thank you, Danny.
to expand on that, what we know about that fire and about that pain, we've been taught through words. people say "don't touch because it's hot." that's how we've learned that the fire is hot. everything we know about the fire is put to words through others instructions. therefore, our knowledge is limited to words.

[Narcissistic Nihilist]

Originally posted by hambakmeritru
thank you, Danny.
to expand on that, what we know about that fire and about that pain, we've been taught through words. people say "don't touch because it's hot." that's how we've learned that the fire is hot. everything we know about the fire is put to words through others instructions. therefore, our knowledge is limited to words.
Exactly.

Unless you have experienced it first yourself, you know it can cause pain by having this information communicated to you, by WORDS(-"the very nature of our discourse").

[In Dust and Ashes]

ok, so let me flip to another side.

what about imagination? our mind can come up with a lot of things that we might not necessarily have words for. of course, if you're like Dr. Suess I suppose you could make up words appropriate for it, but the idea was born in your head before it was a word, therefore, the word isn't whats limiting the thoughts, right?

[Jackal]

My imagination is my best feature.

[negatifzeo]

Originally posted by hambakmeritru
my Approaches to Literature teacher has a quote on the wall that says:
"The limits of my language are the limits of my mind. All I know is what I have words for. --Ludwig Wittgenstein"

my question is:
is your mind really limited by your language?
or
is your language limited by your mind?

I've been working on arguments for both sides, but my opinion falls on the latter option. I'd like to see what others say before I make a move to defend either.

In a sense the mind is limited by language, but I don't think language is limited by the mind, that's just stupid. That's why words are invented and added to the dictionary each year. Mind can be limited by language if the individual thinks only within the syntax of the language, so on that level it's a case by case basis. On another level though, mind really is limited by language, in the sense that if we cannot communicate that idea to another before we die, the idea essentially dies with us.

I think that the Bible may be a good example of this concept. It's my opinion that the Bible originally was a noble attempt to articulate ideas that can't be accurately articulated due to the limits of language. I don't mean to say that the ideas can't be discovered within, but the politicallly driven edits don't help. Neither do all the fundies, whose literal interpretation without any thought behind what the words may be trying to express only gives the text a bad name amongst rational peoples.

[Intern Kate]

Sapir-Whorf hypothesis.

[Six Ways]

I haven't read all of this thoroughly (haven't been on Blamo in days) but I was thinking about something similar a few days ago. I think that mind is not limited by language, but it's easy to let yourself be limited by language.

For instance, what I was thinking the other day is that people are fond of saying things like 'Science can't explain emotions'. They say that's because emotions aren't solid, and you can't express them properly.

This is bullshit, because all it means is we don't have words to properly express what we're feeling to another person, and our concept of reality is very closely linked with our concept of our ability to ommunicate information about that reality. Therefore, if we can't properly communicate what we experience, we think it's weird and strange and inexplicable. Just because we don't have words to explain something doesn't mean we can't explain something.

I'd say therefore that language is limited by mind, because if you're smart enough you'll transcend the need for language to think about a problem. I'm not necessarily taking about converting all problems into maths, which is again a language, but just accepting that even though we don't have words for some things doesn't mean they don't exist. Accepting that means you can think in concepts rather than having to think in words.

And Negatifzeo, what you said about language being limited by mind being stupid.....what are you on about? Who makes up the words exactly? Humans.....and humans use their minds to make up the words. Therefore by definition language is limited by mind; the only real question here is whether the converse is true also.

[Six Ways]

BTW, good thread Jacki, it's about time we had a real philosophy thread for a change, ages since we had one.

[negatifzeo]

Originally posted by Six Ways


And Negatifzeo, what you said about language being limited by mind being stupid.....what are you on about? Who makes up the words exactly? Humans.....and humans use their minds to make up the words. Therefore by definition language is limited by mind; the only real question here is whether the converse is true also.

I do see your point, but I disagree. We make up the words. You just said we use our minds to make up the words. So without our minds, language would not grow or evolve, but WITH our minds, language grows and evolves. Yet language is limited by our minds? I don't look at it the same way. There is no "ceiling" on language, language can grow and be made to change thanks to our minds. There is no limit.

[Six Ways]

I really don't see your point. Language is a human construct. Without humans thinking up language, language cannot exist. If language is entirely dependent upon the human brain, then by definition language is limited by our mind. If it's not limited, that's only because our brains are not limited.

Maybe you're seeing this the wrong way.....as I see it this thread is not about whether we have reached a ceiling with either mind or language, and if so which is it that is presenting the ceiling; rather that if there were a limiting feature, it would be the mind. We're not saying language is somehow limited right now, or that there is a limit; I'm saying language cannot advance past the state of advancement of the brain. That's not to say advancement has stopped. This is a general statement of dependence, not a specific statement . I don't think I'm communicating the distinction I'm trying to make very well (no jokes about language please) but rest assured, it's the internet's fault. If you're not sure what I'm trying to say, say so and I'll have another shot at it.

On the other hand maybe I'm barking up the wrong tree and you don't think I'm talking about a current stoppage of the evolution of language. Idunno.

[Telegram Sam]

the key is not to confuse what's out there with what is perceived to be out there. see brain in a vat.

[In Dust and Ashes]

Originally posted by Six Ways
ages since we had one.

yeah, no kidding. my mind has been in decay ever since I got into college and this place has been dull as hell from about the same time.
I think if I had some more philosophy courses, I'd be in good shape, but i'm still arguing with my parents over that one, and the philosophy courses seem to fill up quickly.

[Telegram Sam]

your mind has been in decay ever since the god squad got you

[negatifzeo]

Originally posted by Six Ways
I really don't see your point. Language is a human construct. Without humans thinking up language, language cannot exist. If language is entirely dependent upon the human brain, then by definition language is limited by our mind. If it's not limited, that's only because our brains are not limited.


You're absolutely right, great point. I was way off.

[In Dust and Ashes]

Originally posted by Alan Smithee
your mind has been in decay ever since the god squad got you

[In Dust and Ashes]

and yeah, I agree with negatifzeo in agreeance with Winslow.