old theory but new update - lemme know your thoughts

[tum]

during some work on psychology i did in college, i came across a theory that really struck me, and elliott has been making me think about this idea more and more lately.

children who are beaten, especially severely, often have troubled lives. drug abuse, suicide, problems with relationships, trouble with the law, and greater health problems correlate with coming from a family with abusive parents--especially physical abuse.

this probably isn't news to anyone. but what really got me was that there were also another effect that was quite different: when these children grow up, they also have a sort of hypersensitivity to understanding the emotional processes of others. the theory was that as children they learned to become acutely attuned to their parents' (or whoever's) nonverbal and emotional cues so they could avoid arousing their anger and so avoid being beaten [or arouse it on purpose--but that's another story]. as they grew up and left the home, this developed into a sort of hyperacute understanding of the cognitive and emotional thought processes of others.

it's kind of strange to admit this online, but i was beaten pretty badly as a kid (though my mom got it a lot worse than me). it's been about 10 years now since the last time i really took it rough and i've managed to put some distance between me and my past--no serious problems with the law and i'm finishing up medical school this coming spring. the reason i'm saying this is because working in the hospital, i've always gotten credit for being good with patients--especially the tough ones. i seem to 'get' people. not always, but i can usually figure out what's really bugging the person to the point where my interns and attendings have actually paged me in to deal with tough situations. but to be honest, for myself i seem to be stuck in some pretty self-destructive patterns. when i listen to elliott's music--whether he's talking about relationships, his depression, his struggles with addiction--i feel like he's describing my thought processes to the point where it's almost a time line.

my guess is that i'm not alone here, but maybe i am. so my question for you all is this: do elliott's fans tend to have the same sorts of issues/histories? if this is all just something i created in my head, so be it. but it seems like for me empathy for others and introspection are easy, and for myself i'm condemned to the same patterns again and again. i've noticed others mentioning suicide attempts and problems with drugs in different forums, which made me feel a little more comfortable talking about this, but let me know what you all think.

[tum]

i couldn't find my old post so i reposted it from my xanga.

in any case i wanted to give a quick update since i've had a chance to work in the real world since then and develop a more practical understanding of things. let me know what you guys think.

i'm specifically thinking of a a patient i had who had suffered severe sexual, physical and mental abuse. her mind had developed borderline personality disorder, which is often seen with these sorts of histories. there is a cluster of traits with this dysfunction--the patients tend to do things like 'splitting' in which their minds work in complete binary--either someone is entirely good or entirely bad, nothing in between; they tend to have intense fears of abandonment and because of this have very chaotic relationships; they are also often found to be the 'cutters' (a la nine inch nails). their arms can look like roadmaps.

in any case the girl i treated was quite passive and readily agreed with anything i said, but according to the nurses, when i was not there tended to be quite combative -- ie. she had split me into the good category and the nurses into the bad. either way, she was a lovely young woman with that hyperawareness of others i spoke about above. maybe our difficult histories were what let us click a bit more easily.

but the thing about her was her hyperawareness of others made me look like an idiot by comparison. i remember a specific incidence when a social worker was at the nurse's station and this girl walked up to her and said with unusual warmth, "Wow how long have you known?" The nurse, was tired of her daily fights with my patient, and responded a bit short, "Known what." to which girl said "That you're pregnant."

campy as it sounds, the nurse did not know that she was pregnant, although she had been trying. This girl's hypersensitivity to others -- ie. noticing a flush in the nurse's skin, the slight congestion of her gum line, a small smile on her face, whatever effects the progesterone in her body had, the girl had picked up on. in a way she was a sort of "emotional superhero".

i've read that successful people in social professions (politicians, physicians, psychologists) and certain artists have developed this sort of social awareness. and they use it to do quite well in life. the only problem is that with those who develop it as a coping mechanism, they cannot focus enough inwardly enough to effectively use their awareness.

the bottom line is whatever your trauma, if the end result is emotional abuse, then you become hyperaware of the emotions of others. but the reason for the lack of internal awareness in children from abused households is that their parents often don't respond to the emotions of the children. ie. if a baby giggles or cries the parents may not acknowledge it and respond--either due to neglect or because of other difficulties. this happens at an extreme degree to children in foster homes. so, the theory goes, the child begins to believe their emotions are not important, while the feelings of those around them are crucial.

and this is what causes the basic problem that i was complaining of -- that i could understand and help others with, but in my own life i reenacted the same terrible patterns of self-destruction again and again.

i guess for me it broke down to a basic fear: i didn't want to get hit. and this fear was so deep that it stayed with me as i grew older. and this forced me to be very aware of those around me. but i've always ignored what was going on inside my own head, because it never really mattered. so i recreated my childhood hell with those that cared for me most.

this might not show through in my post, but it hurts more than i expected to say that.

anyways, here's the reference that explains this all a bit more eloquently, if anyone cares to check it out:

"Empathy in Borderline Patients" Lee C. Park et al., "Giftedness and Psychological Abuse in Borderline Personality Disorder: Their Relevance to Genesis and Treatment," Journal of Personality Disorders 6 (1992)

i guess it's finally a more complete answer to my question from before. i don't think i'm as good at explaining myself as i was back then--i'm almost four years away from the last thing i wrote in undergrad--and i'll try and edit this post later to make more sense. but i just again want to give my thanks for the emotional insights of others in the forums. your words have helped me talk to my own demons and get them to keep the noise level down a bit. i'm grateful.

i don't know if anyone really read this ridiculously long post. i guess i wrote it more for myself than anything else. i'm not really around people that often day to day where i can bring these things up. but if anyone has made it this far, i'd appreciate your thoughts.

[solveig]

it's true but
they don't
necessarily
understand
empathy
in others

[tum]

it's nice to see a familiar name here. it's interesting--i was just reading in this book "Emotional Intelligence" about the difference between empathy and sympathy. i know it's not entirely to do with your response, but i thought it was interesting that "empathy" is defined as seeing an emotion in another and experiencing it in yourself while "sympathy" is understanding the difficulties of another, but not actually experiencing the same emotion in yourself.

the book talks about how they did studies of husband-wives where they hooked their bodies up to physiologic monitors and high resolution digital cameras and had the couples discuss some point of contention in their relationship. then they went back and showed the film to the participants later and again recorded their physiology while the husband-wives were watching the tape of themselves arguing. the funny thing is that they found the husbands that were considered by their wives and psychiatrists to be most "empathic", when watching the video of the argument actually tended to match the heart rates of their wives. ie. when seeing their wife show an expression of anxiety, their own heart rates and blood pressures went up just watching it on a monitor. it instinctively makes sense--i mean we've all probably been in situations with a friend who's depressed, and we feel bad ourselves. or a friend who's bursting with anxiety and we start to feel a little nervous. same goes for happiness.

something just as odd is that another study found that when they artificially created fast heart rates or sweat responses (fight or flight) the subject reported feeling worried, or when they sedated their patients the subjects were sad or at peace, and when the patients were told to frown, they actually became more sad and when they were told to snarl, they actually became angrier.

everytime i post something this long, i feel like i've just had one of those conversations where i was talking for too long and didn't realize it until 3/4ths of the way through my story and by then it's too late to turn back on my manic phase.

[tum]

the only exception to this is that for some reason girls who are physically abused still remain aware of their own emotions, but they actually become overly aware, and this creates problems of its own. actual medical dysfunctions can develop. for example, inflammatory bowel syndrome where the patient suffers chronic malabsorption in their GI tract because their intestines are so sensitive to irritation from food they cannot absorb anything effectively. also fibromyalgia can be seen in which the patient is so overaware of their joints and muscles that they experience chronic pain throughout their body that is resistant to many pain medications. and maybe more obviously something like chronic panic disorder, in which patients are hypersensitive to the effects of carbon dioxide in their lungs and lactic acid in their blood, so they often feel as if they're suffocating. all of these are physically hyperaware states that are strongly correlated with childhood abuse. when their awareness turns inwards it causes difficulties too.

anyways enough of the psychology today talk.

[pesadillala]

thank you.

that was really interesting.

[hikat]

Originally posted by tum


i've read that successful people in social professions (politicians, physicians, psychologists) and certain artists have developed this sort of social awareness. and they use it to do quite well in life.....

....the bottom line is whatever your trauma, if the end result is emotional abuse, then you become hyperaware of the emotions of others. ...so, the theory goes, the child begins to believe their emotions are not important, while the feelings of those around them are crucial.


okay, and yes, i've seen some developmental theorizing and research in this, but i would point out that probablistic epigenesis suggests there are other paths to that place, okay? and the path you describe sometimes leads to other places entirely.

but yes, that is one way it can look.

if you're interested in non-medical approaches to borderline personality disorder (or emotional dysregulation disorder, as some would prefer to call it), look to marsha linehan and dialectical behavior therapy. it's manualized, another approach to awareness, borrows heavily from eastern traditions. i see a lot of thich nhat hanh in there.

[hikat]

Originally posted by tum
....something just as odd is that another study found that when they artificially created fast heart rates or sweat responses (fight or flight) the subject reported feeling worried, or when they sedated their patients the subjects were sad or at peace, and when the patients were told to frown, they actually became more sad and when they were told to snarl, they actually became angrier.

everytime i post something this long, i feel like i've just had one of those conversations where i was talking for too long and didn't realize it until 3/4ths of the way through my story and by then it's too late to turn back on my manic phase.

okay, i've read up on this too, makes a good case for the mind-body connection.

i like your manic phase. :)

[hikat]

were you looking at the magnetic resonance imaging studies of amygdala activation for borderline personality subjects, by any chance?

[ParentheticalThought]

Speaking as someone with no medical background whatsoever (but some of the other experiences you mentioned), I do know what you're talking about tum, and I've also thought I've seen it in Elliott. I'm wary of trying to analyze either myself or Elliott (especially Elliott) online, but, anyway, you're not alone in your thinking.

[sombre winds]

Originally posted by hikat
okay, and yes, i've seen some developmental theorizing and research in this, but i would point out that probablistic epigenesis suggests there are other paths to that place, okay? and the path you describe sometimes leads to other places entirely.

but yes, that is one way it can look.

if you're interested in non-medical approaches to borderline personality disorder (or emotional dysregulation disorder, as some would prefer to call it), look to marsha linehan and dialectical behavior therapy. it's manualized, another approach to awareness, borrows heavily from eastern traditions. i see a lot of thich nhat hanh in there.

Yes it is the most effective treatment out there so far. And one of the things that makes this work is that Linehan focuses on validation and on the real pain that the person's experiencing rather than the kind of distancing and labeling (like "splitting" that past more dynamic approaches used. We are talking about real people who have suffered a lot in their families and are trying their best to cope with life. I think it's more useful to just think of people as trauma survivors and leave out labels like "borderline" which have such negative associations for most people. When that label was developed and descriptions of bpd developed they didn't know the connection with trauma.

The differerence is pretty major. A traditional approach would be to see a woman who is calling for help as needy and manipulative and confront their help-seeking behavior. Linehan's approach is far more humane.

[sombre winds]

Originally posted by hikat
were you looking at the magnetic resonance imaging studies of amygdala activation for borderline personality subjects, by any chance?

And the same is true for ptsd. BPD is a mis-named trauma disorder.

[alicec123]

that all sounds too Hobbesian. too easy.
but i don't know.

take care of...whomever needs it.
ellie

[hikat]

my point was missed.

nevermind.
i'm done.

[alicec123]

i think i was agreeing with you.
that doesn't help.
i'm sorry.

[solveig]

incredible as it seems
this thread is not
about you

[frankenweeny]

.....thanks so much for making this thread tum.......

........this is the first i've heard of this......

......i'll track down a copy of the text you cited......

......i just had my own cockamamie theory.....

.......eg., just 'intuition' or 'common sense'......

........hope you're doing okay....

[taraldor7]

!

[alicec123]

i haven't read any psych books or looked at any brain scans, and i don't care to. sure, maybe a few people, some people develop the way this thread has been saying. the closest i'm going to get to quoting some psych text or journal is to say that you get what you look for. my brother and i were both beaten, and all i have to go on is experience, so if you want definitions, principles, and postulates, go study geometry. my brother got it a lot worse and, though i love my brother very much, he couldn't care less how someone else feels if he did pay attention long enough to notice. and why not? no one noticed him. almost sadly, i am very similar, though quieter and someone tried to tell me once i was bpd. it's nonsense, that's all. it doesn't help. it doesn't tell you anything about anyone, except maybe your case study.

[ParentheticalThought]

Originally posted by alicec123
i haven't read any psych books or looked at any brain scans, and i don't care to. sure, maybe a few people, some people develop the way this thread has been saying. the closest i'm going to get to quoting some psych text or journal is to say that you get what you look for. my brother and i were both beaten, and all i have to go on is experience, so if you want definitions, principles, and postulates, go study geometry. my brother got it a lot worse and, though i love my brother very much, he couldn't care less how someone else feels if he did pay attention long enough to notice. and why not? no one noticed him. almost sadly, i am very similar, though quieter and someone tried to tell me once i was bpd. it's nonsense, that's all. it doesn't help. it doesn't tell you anything about anyone, except maybe your case study.

Having empathic abilties and actually using the information to show empathy are two different things. The ability to intuit how other people are feeling and how they might react is sort of a "craft", if you will, and some people are very good at it. That doesn't mean that they care about other people, or use the information they collect to make connections with other people. They just use it if they need it, in order to stay safe or to get ahead. Some may use it in a negative way to hurt others - their little revenge on the world. I think Elliott was rather exceptional in that he did take use his intuitions (felt morally compelled, in a way) to help others or to at least try to communicate with them. You and your brother are not like him - so be it. My brother and I are not like him either.

[alicec123]

my point was missed. nevermind.

[ParentheticalThought]

Originally posted by alicec123
my point was missed. nevermind.

Sorry. so what was your point?

[alicec123]

i believe when i jump out of the window that i am going to fall because of the millions of experiences wherein like objects are put into like circumstances and lead to like results, not because i know the causal relation and that it exists in or between the objects, but because " we accompany our ideas with a kind of reflexion, of which custom renders us, in a great measure, insensible." This requires a distinction of reason, which is the separation of resemblances in what seems, and really is, perfectly inseparable, such as color and form. We do this to form general ideas, which, however, do not exist because "the word not being able to revive the idea of all these individuals, only touches the soul, if I may be allowed so to speak, and revives that custom, which we have acquired by surveying them. They are not really and in fact present to the mind, but only in power; nor do we draw them all out distinctly in the imagination, but keep ourselves in a readiness to survey any of them, as we may be prompted by a present design or necessity. The word raises up an individual idea, along with a certain custom; and that custom produces any other individual one, for which we may have occasion...However this may be, 'tis certain that we form the idea of individuals, whenever we use any general term; that we seldom or never can exhaust these individuals..."
right, i'm not gonna put my hand in any fire, because maybe this is the one that doesn't produce heat, but it remains that it is "perfectly inexplicable by human reason, and 'twill always be impossible to decide with certainty, whether [impressions which correspond perfectly with ideas] arise immediately from the object, or are produced by the creative power of the mind, or are derived from the author of our being."
this is not comprehensive and maybe i've not clarified myself at all, and i hope this helped, but i'm sick of writing now. it's all in hume's treatise of human nature, if you'll believe it, i guess.
"whenever you make my life cliche so to fit in some little box with all the labelled shit you would say to keep confusion away."

[ParentheticalThought]

I dunno, I've always found the philosophers to be the guiltiest of all for running around slapping labels on everything.

Reading over the posts in this thread, I don't think we were all that far apart from each other.

[alicec123]

but that's exactly it, right? we have to label things to merely stay alive. we have to label some things.

it's psychology masquerading as medicine that involves the filthiest kind of labelling, the labelling of men, of types of men.

i tried to show by using the labels (i believe i called them distinctions of reason) of color, form, and objects that men should not and simply cannot be labelled thus, not that they aren't.

if a man has lied frequently in the past, what does another man do but label him a liar, and is not easily put off from this label without some proof of honesty particular to this one man, perhaps these men?

we must label to live, we must create relations, we must link water and sinking and sinking and suffocating. sometimes it is necessary. it is not always necessary, but it is particular to men, this order we seek, a reason without confusion.

i was trying to say that it is very hard, this thing is very hard, that we should not forsake confusion for order unjustly or too easily.

philosophers are men too. philosophy is not exactly a coherent field that you can refer to. whereas philosophy means love of wisdom, psychology, which can be easily construed as a part of philosophy, means some like the study of breath or spirit (psuche^), which can sometimes mean or be translated soul. hmm.

[ParentheticalThought]

Ah, ok. When I read your post about your brother I couldn't tell if you were making a "beware of labeling" argument or were attacking particular elements of content. I chose to comment on the latter but it sounds like you really meant the former.

Well, yeah, this whole thread is just a mental exercise, really - no different (but no less entertaining and/or cathartic in its own way) than when we go on for three thread-pages trying to pin down Elliott's motivation for writing a particular song lyric. We're not really going to uncover anthing. The "truth" is just a bazillion a moving targets, and all we're going to end up labeling is the dead space. But as you said, humans feel compelled to label, so we take a shot at it and feel better for it.

I can see, especially if you've been abused by the medical/psych profession, that you'd been pissed off or sickened by the above. Doctors, for one, have far too much labeling power. And I must admit, I got a chill reading Tum's original posts for that reason. What a mess he could make of people's lives, really. But I've seen/thought/felt things/connections that I'd like to make sense of - even though that's impossible, in part because they may not even exist - and so I answered him.

I guess my main point is that I'm not too worried. Life is too long, but its also too short.

[hikat]

:)

At last the Dodo said, `EVERYBODY has won, and all must have prizes.'

Lewis Carroll

[alicec123]

i'm sorry we passed each other by so closely, and, yeah, the former is exactly what i was trying to get at, but i wasn't exactly explicit about that. i wasn't actually trying to say anything about elliott, except maybe indirectly, but that's more or less what this is about and i just ignored it.

but, mainly, i am worried. i want truth. nothing less, not catharsis, and i am afraid i will give up one possibly unachievable aim for another which gives pleasure, and i manage to project that onto everyone else or think it's as important to everyone as to me. but like hume said it doesn't matter if it's TRUTH, because that, whatever it is, is inexplicable by human reason. what i sense may simply not be TRUTH, but only "truth", and i can't ever know that, but i am worried anyway.

thank you for responding. i wish tum would respond since he started all this "nonsense".

can we laugh while i ask what the hell i know about sense?

yeah, a chill, i got that, and a punch in the stomach.

[alicec123]

so YOU finally said it, hikat, eh?

[solveig]

Originally posted by hikat
:)

At last the Dodo said, `EVERYBODY has won, and all must have prizes.'

Lewis Carroll

:)

[ParentheticalThought]

Originally posted by hikat
:)

At last the Dodo said, `EVERYBODY has won, and all must have prizes.'

Lewis Carroll

Well, my feathers are quite dry again. I'm taking my thimble and going home.

[tum]

alicec123, my apologies. i have been away for some time. i'm sorry for your experiences when you were younger. your response seemed to be different than mine--although perhaps you and your brother were still empathic, just not concerned. as six underground once said "don't think because I understand, I care."

my story was a case study, you were correct. the only way to get past saying "well that's just your experience" is to look at larger numbers of patients and see if there's a trend. the references i gave did that. of course it's not binary. doctors that treat it as such (and there are many) are morons.

in any case, i believe i saw a dodo earlier and he was giving out prizes and awards. i have a feeling we all agree a bit more than would seem apparent if someone were to quickly read through this thread. i'm gonna go get my prize.

[tum]

okay, and yes, i've seen some developmental theorizing and research in this, but i would point out that probablistic epigenesis suggests there are other paths to that place, okay? and the path you describe sometimes leads to other places entirely.

but yes, that is one way it can look.

if you're interested in non-medical approaches to borderline personality disorder (or emotional dysregulation disorder, as some would prefer to call it), look to marsha linehan and dialectical behavior therapy. it's manualized, another approach to awareness, borrows heavily from eastern traditions. i see a lot of thich nhat hanh in there.

ya i agree. there are far healthier ways to get to the psychological 'end of the rainbow' so to speak. i will definitely look into those references. psychiatry/psychology isn't a big part of what i do anymore but would be interested in something outside of the mostly western approach i'm familiar with.. feels a little constricting at times.

[recordrunning]

I don't have any articles to cite or anything, but personally... I think it's quite possible that a deeper understanding and empathy can come from these experiences. But then of course, there are also those who are beaten and neglected and just don't give a shit about how other people feel (because they never received affection themselves). So I suppose it could go either way...

[snowballinhell]

at the risk of bringing a new label into this.. :\
i run a small forum for supporting adults with attachment disorder or attachment issues.. and what we have found is that many people get labeled bpd (borderline personality disorder) that are more accurately ad or rad.. with ad the biggest focus is on the insecure attachment that is formed in the first few critical years of life.. either by being switched from caregiver to caregiver as in adoption, foster care, etc.. or by neglect, abuse, parental illness be it mental or physical that causes a breakdown in a healthy secure attachment.. even infants in prolonged incubator stays due to medical issues can develop this.. or colicy babies whose distress cannot be calmed even by perfectly attentive parents..
anyway.. this insecure attachment seems to leave a child two options.. keep seeking the longed for secure attachment or defend against it.. some cling, some detach.. we all fall along a spectrum.. and it is flexible over a lifetime so it can get worse in a dysfunctional environment..

i have never been diagnosed with bpd, although i have dealt with self-injury for 25 years.. since the early 80's when there just was no talk/info out about it for laymen.. it is interesting to note that harlow's research with rhesus monkeys not only brought about an increased awareness in the importance of attachment, but that the monkeys also reacted to the stress of being separated from their mothers by soothing themselves with self-harm.. it is like nature's last ditch effort to calm one's self.. the insecure attachment teaches us that relief of our distress will not come.. and our very survival depends on being able to 'read' the adult caregivers around us, as turn was explaining.. to please them means survival.. to fail often means neglect or abuse since their needs are taking first priority.. i often feel i am far too sensitive to the tensions/feelings going on in others.. and it is partly why i am agoraphobic.. agoraphobia and attachment disorder are related since many of us are fearful/avoidant.. the sense of 'not mattering' or having importance is integrated and so many of us feel very detached from our own emotions, treating them with the same disregard that our caretakers did..

i'm going on and on.. but what i'm really getting at is.. i am one of the people that feels such an empathy for elliott's lyrics that it is as if he has spoken for me.. that is why it is extra special for me.. even the sadness and grief are things i needed help saying in a way.. because getting connected back up is therapeutic to my healing.. i have tried to use art and writing over the years as an alternative to the more self-destructive symptoms that came with my insane childhood.. and i imagine elliott was likewise driven in his need to create to express himself in a positive way.. fortunately he had an immense natural talent for it along with that added motivation.. but i see the same road i've been down with him as well as far as alcohol/drugs/self-destruction..

i don't know if my perspective offers anything helpful to the original post or not..
the labels are so intimidating.. even if we need them for identification purposes.. i have an alphabet soup of them after my name.. (and i aint talkin' about degrees! lol!) i am inspired by elliott smith because i know from my own experience that art heals.. art expresses and validates our experience..

there is a link to ADconnection at my blog & website in my sig to anyone who needs it..
as well as a link to my gallery,
:xo:
ghost

[sombre winds]

at the risk of bringing a new label into this.. :\
i run a small forum for supporting adults with attachment disorder or attachment issues.. and what we have found is that many people get labeled bpd (borderline personality disorder) that are more accurately ad or rad.. with ad the biggest focus is on the insecure attachment that is formed in the first few critical years of life.. either by being switched from caregiver to caregiver as in adoption, foster care, etc.. or by neglect, abuse, parental illness be it mental or physical that causes a breakdown in a healthy secure attachment.. even infants in prolonged incubator stays due to medical issues can develop this.. or colicy babies whose distress cannot be calmed even by perfectly attentive parents..
anyway.. this insecure attachment seems to leave a child two options.. keep seeking the longed for secure attachment or defend against it.. some cling, some detach.. we all fall along a spectrum.. and it is flexible over a lifetime so it can get worse in a dysfunctional environment..

i have never been diagnosed with bpd, although i have dealt with self-injury for 25 years.. since the early 80's when there just was no talk/info out about it for laymen.. it is interesting to note that harlow's research with rhesus monkeys not only brought about an increased awareness in the importance of attachment, but that the monkeys also reacted to the stress of being separated from their mothers by soothing themselves with self-harm.. it is like nature's last ditch effort to calm one's self.. the insecure attachment teaches us that relief of our distress will not come.. and our very survival depends on being able to 'read' the adult caregivers around us, as turn was explaining.. to please them means survival.. to fail often means neglect or abuse since their needs are taking first priority.. i often feel i am far too sensitive to the tensions/feelings going on in others.. and it is partly why i am agoraphobic.. agoraphobia and attachment disorder are related since many of us are fearful/avoidant.. the sense of 'not mattering' or having importance is integrated and so many of us feel very detached from our own emotions, treating them with the same disregard that our caretakers did..

i'm going on and on.. but what i'm really getting at is.. i am one of the people that feels such an empathy for elliott's lyrics that it is as if he has spoken for me.. that is why it is extra special for me.. even the sadness and grief are things i needed help saying in a way.. because getting connected back up is therapeutic to my healing.. i have tried to use art and writing over the years as an alternative to the more self-destructive symptoms that came with my insane childhood.. and i imagine elliott was likewise driven in his need to create to express himself in a positive way.. fortunately he had an immense natural talent for it along with that added motivation.. but i see the same road i've been down with him as well as far as alcohol/drugs/self-destruction..

i don't know if my perspective offers anything helpful to the original post or not..
the labels are so intimidating.. even if we need them for identification purposes.. i have an alphabet soup of them after my name.. (and i aint talkin' about degrees! lol!) i am inspired by elliott smith because i know from my own experience that art heals.. art expresses and validates our experience..

there is a link to ADconnection at my blog & website in my sig to anyone who needs it..
as well as a link to my gallery,
:xo:
ghost

This is as good a label as any. Certainly less perjorative than Borderline Personality Disorder. People who work with BPD know that it's only another name for someone who experienced attachment issues at a very young age. I'm not saying that AD = BPD; more that AD is inclusive of what's labeled BPD as well as many other "labels" like DID and often Bipolar 2. AD just seems to get directly to the issue and bypasses labels that have negative associations.

If anyone is more scientifically minded you might check out the work of Allen Schore. He's done a lot of work on emotional development in the infant and attachment patterns that lead to the labels that psychiatry prefers to use.