Am I going to hell?

[Fab]

Ok, so you may or may not know that I'm an atheist, completely. I'm also a good person, I'm not spiteful and I do lots of kind things for people just for the sake of it. The problem is that I'm not a practicing Christian, as an atheist I think it wouldn't really work for me, and I'm quite happy with my lot really. So, bearing this in mind (assume that I really am a truly good person, despite what you may think, the whole question is hypothetical to me since I don't believe in hell anyway), am I going to go to hell for simply not believing in God?

I think a good God (and God should be pretty good) wouldn't send me to hell for believing in something I have no reason to believe in. Why should I believe in him? I have no evidence and surley God would appreciate this fact and not punnish me for not having blind faith (please don't give me reasons to believe in God, I don't want this to get sidetracked too much from the main point).

I'm interested in the viewpoints of any theist or atheist. Interesting tangent: do the people who practice other religions go to hell (or whatever other place bad people go in other religions), even if their religion doesn't have any immoral practices (I'm ruling Satanism out here, and religions that inherently descriminate against certain people)?

[Jackal]

So, your wondering if the God you don't believe in will see that your a nice enough person to let you into Heaven even though you don't believe in that either?

I wonder that too!

Once and for all, do all animal's go to Heaven or Hell. I'm not making fun, I want to know.

[Fab]

I'm just interested in what theists think about it, because I know Luke's mum says he won't go to heaven because he hasn't been "saved", yet if you're a good person, I don't see why you shouldn't.

Whilst we're on the hypothetical discussion of what happens when you die, Stanaists are fucking stupid, do any of them believe that Satan is someone who's actually going to be on your side? pshh.

[Six Ways]

Originally posted by Fab
Luke's mum says he won't go to heaven because he hasn't been "saved"

It's true and I'm scared....

[Smith Comma John]

if you're an athiest (i'm one too), i think you just die, that's it. no afterlife, no heaven or hell. sounds kind of dull, but that's the way it goes. if there is no god, how can you go to hell, or heaven for that matter?

[DrHibbert]

Originally posted by flutter
if you're an athiest (i'm one too), i think you just die, that's it. no afterlife, no heaven or hell. sounds kind of dull, but that's the way it goes. if there is no god, how can you go to hell, or heaven for that matter?

But that doesn't seem to make any sense. Either there is a heaven/hell or there isn't. I don't think it even classifies as purgatory if you just die and that's it.

I'm not saying you're wrong about dying and everything stops, but I don't see how it could be different for members of a certain religion and not for others, i.e. religious people get their heaven/hell and athiests get nothing.

In the off chance that there actually is a heaven and a hell, I think that by definition all the nonbelievers are supposed to go to hell.

[Smith Comma John]

Originally posted by DrHibbert
In the off chance that there actually is a heaven and a hell, I think that by definition all the nonbelievers are supposed to go to hell.

that makes sense.

[DrHibbert]

I guess you're right, that doesn't make much sense!

I think what I meant was that Christians (or whatever other religion at issue) define what heaven and hell are, so if they say you haven't met the requirements to go to their heaven, then you'll go to their hell. But this all presumes that the given religion is actually right about existence, which is one hell of a presumption.

[DrHibbert]

Oh, I read your last post wrong, sorry. I thought you were saying that Christians would get their heaven or hell and that athiests would get nothing. Which is why I was confused.

[Smith Comma John]

i was serious though. what you said did make sense.

[Six Ways]

Flutter, you're missing Fab's point - he's not scared of going to hell, since he doesn't believe it exists. Rather, he is questioning the value of a religion which supposedly says, even if you are a fantastic person, if you don't believe in god you go to hell regardless. That doesn't mean he believes in hell but not god! We're not talking metaphysics, we're talking morality and stuff.

[Fab]

What Luke said, but I'll say it more concisely.

I don't think I'm going to hell because I don't believe in it, I'm curious as to what theists think will happen to me when I die because even though I'm an atheist, I'm also an awesomely nice person.

[ramblingrose]

I think I'm a pessimistic agnostic although I'm not sure if that's technically right, as it's not specifically the whole christian god thing that I wonder about.
As far as I'm concerned something must happen after you're dead (I'll be bloody cross if it doesn't). The reasons I think that aren't very easy for me to explain but I can't see any reason for a lot of things unless there's another bit after. Just as an example, there's no evolutionary point that I can find to be able to think and speak and stuff. And what's the point of love? This is really making my brain hurt, and I wish I was clever and could explain what I mean. Feh.
I just think if there is no pay-off after you're dead, what's the point of Frank being an awesomely nice person, for example? It's not necessarily going to help him while he's alive. I'm going to think about this some more and try not to sound so effing dim.

[ramblingrose]

Originally posted by Six Ways
It's true and I'm scared....

I'll save you.;)

[Jackal]

Watching a baby turn from a newborn into a child really makes a case for evolution. They learn by watching and copying you. And when they see a response from a smile they do it over and over to see your reaction. They learn to roll, then crawl, until they can walk, and they make faces until they can make sounds and then talk. All of the actions are learned to get something or go somewhere. Really no different than puppies or kittens at all.

There was never a point where I thought God was intervening in any of his development because I was with him 24/7 and saw him learn everything.

I guess I believe ants or rats or black widow spiders I kill just die and nothing happens so i guess when your dead your just a pile of bones and skin.

Love, to me, is just a catch-all word to describe all the feelings you have for people in an easy way.

[Six Ways]

Originally posted by ramblingrose
I'll save you.;)

You can't....ESPECIALLY not with pre-marital lovin', which, I can only assume, is how you wish to help me. :(

[ramblingrose]

Originally posted by Jackal

Love, to me, is just a catch-all word to describe all the feelings you have for people in an easy way.

I can't understand how that stuff serves a scientific purpose though...I mean, what is the point of missing someone or thinking somebody's funny? The reincarnation theories make a bit of sense to me, all that stuff about life/lives being a series of lessons. I won't be surprised if there's some sort of exam at the end. If I'm going to believe in that though I'll have to believe in some sort of entity or it won't make sense.

Frank, I hope you realise that you've made me question my entire belief system with this thread? And I hope you are going to make it up to me somehow, given that you're an awesomely nice person and everything!

[ramblingrose]

Originally posted by Six Ways
You can't....ESPECIALLY not with pre-marital lovin', which, I can only assume, is how you wish to help me. :(
Oh sir, you startled me! *blushes and rearranges bonnet*

[DrHibbert]

Originally posted by ramblingrose
I won't be surprised if there's some sort of exam at the end. If so then I hope it is an essay exam! I do well on those!!

[ramblingrose]

I'm hoping for multiple choice and maybe a performance of song of my choosing. I hope it's not cooking or a wet practical.

[DrHibbert]

But maybe it would be even more interesting if we died just to find ourselves in a high-level math exam. Maybe god thinks that's very important, who knows? It would be funny because heaven would be a barren place with lonely nerds wandering around the cloud deserts. And all of these really great, wholesome people would be burning in hell.

[Six Ways]

Originally posted by DrHibbert
But maybe it would be even more interesting if we died just to find ourselves in a high-level math exam. Maybe god thinks that's very important, who knows? It would be funny because heaven would be a barren place with lonely nerds wandering around the cloud deserts. And all of these really great, wholesome people would be burning in hell.

That's my new arbitrary belief system, and I shall demand it taught in all american schools!

[ramblingrose]

I often remark that certain places/situations are probably circles of hell, if there is such a place. I'm supposed to be doing a big colour diagram for my friend as a christmas present but I don't know which ones deserve to be in it. I think in heaven there would be a lot of wine. And grapes. And, um, frolicking.

[Jackal]

It's just hard to be an atheist or agnostic because obviously if your wrong, there will be hell to pay.


I think I like reincarnation too, but it makes me scared that if I fix all of my re-occuring problems I will die.

[Fab]

Originally posted by Jackal
It's just hard to be an atheist or agnostic because obviously if your wrong, there will be hell to pay. Wouldn't it be the same if you pick the "wrong" religion though? And again, do you think that on the off chance that hell does exist, it is my current destination despite me being an amazingly awesome person.

Sorry Ciona, it wasn't meant to challenge people's whole belief systems, I promise. Mostly I was curious, I suppose there's a bit of challenging of bits of beliefs.

[Six Ways]

On the other hand, I AM here just to challenge people's belief systems.

But yeah, on a slightly different (and more conventional) topic (not to redirect the thread, just interested) - what exactly goes on in heaven according to religions? In particular, how much sex occurs with whoever the hell you want? Surely you've deserved it?

[DrHibbert]

Well, adultery is a sin. So, those who were married couldn't have random sex. Except when we marry it is supposed to be "Until death do us part." So maybe it is like that. But I think fornication is frowned upon by most religions. I kind of doubt that the textbook understanding of heaven is everyone having sex. Though that wouldn't be too bad in my book.

[ramblingrose]

Okay, first I like having my belief systems challenged, they're quite shonky anyway. I think I feel my "eyes" theory coming on. Something to look forward to indeed.
Second, there is no way you're going to hell, Frank, whether it's there or not, if you carry on as you are. I'm not sure about Luke though.
And as far as whether or not there's frolicking in heaven goes, if it's not allowed they must take your sex drive off you at the door, otherwise it'd just be another circle of hell. There's a circle of hell right there, a giant free love in with lovely gorgeous people and then you find out you've got no genitals like Barbie and Ken or something.
I think I feel my "four boyfriends" theory coming on too. Don't worry, it's not a slut thing, it's a good theory but people need to evolve a bit more for it to work.

[ramblingrose]

"Eyes" theory - is really just childish bollocks about perception but it continually fascinates me.

If I look at a triangle, and somebody else, just for training purposes Luke, let's say, is looking at the same triangle, we both know it's a triangle but if we were to swap eyes would we say "That's not a triangle, that's a square!"
Or if we were to put each other's hands in a fire would it burn the same? Anyway, then we would thrash out our differences, as it were.
If any clever people have a clue what I'm on about I'd be grateful for your input here because most people just laugh at me when I try and get them to discuss this with me.

[Fab]

I get it. triangles are maybe a bad introductory example, colours would work better and then work up to a triangle.

[ramblingrose]

I'll try the "four boyfriends" theory on you then. I might go to the all-night garage first though. I only have one cigarette left.

[Fab]

don't expect me to be here when you get back, my vision's blurry and if i don't go to sleep soon my eye will start twitching.

[ramblingrose]

Okay! I will try not to get murdered on the mean streets of Little Woodhouse and you can approach it with a non-twitchy eye at a later date.

[Jackal]

Fab, if I was God all the nice people would go to Heaven no matter what they believed on Earth. God is suppose to be a forgiving God.

I though when you went to Heaven you lost the urge for all your Earthly desires like sex, food, sleep....Or was that a Star Trek episode?

The "Eyes" theory sounds WICKED! I guess you mean: do we all see green as the same color type, and is pain the same to everyone. I've tried to figure that out, but explaining a color is hard.

I'm more interested in the "four boyfriends" theory!

[ramblingrose]

Originally posted by Jackal

Once and for all, do all animal's go to Heaven or Hell. I'm not making fun, I want to know.

I had an answer to this but now I find myself wondering whether or not animals are faking their "don't ask me I'm just an animal" thing and they are in fact running the world secretly. Why does nobody think about this stuff?
I'm still concerned about the neighbours but as I'm not falling asleep I'll stop being weird about it.
Um, Allison, I think that if there is any sort of cosmic justice then it applies to everything, not just people, so it would depend on the way the animal (or plant) had conducted itself.
And now I'm going to have a go at "four boyfriends".

[ramblingrose]

Okay, I've been trying to explain it for a while now and I'm not doing very well, so I think I'm going to post it on its own and not try and hijack Frank's thread.
Byeeeeeee for now.

[Static Split Screen]

My PE teacher was trying to convert me to christianity at the beginning of the year. I asked him, "so, if I'm a good person, do good deeds, and try to avoid most things you consider a sin, just because I haven't accepted christ as my personal savior I'm going to fry in hell? If that's the case, I don't think God is very nice."

[Six Ways]

OMFG, it was amazing, one of the guys on my Physics course got my gf to go along to one of those 'Alpha Course' thingies (for those who don't know it's like a free seminar for atheists to try and convert you to christianity - my girlfriend is powerfully atheist). She went along for a laugh basically.

She asked if she was going to hell, and they said 'yes, because you don't love Jesus'. So she was like, 'so even if I'm a really great person and I help others and I'm basically Mother Teresa (sp??) without the worshipping, I still go to hell?' and they said (this is not a joke...):

"Yes, because if you love Jesus, it doesn't matter if you're a good person or not, because Jesus will forgive you your sins.'







WTF?








This is possibly THE MOST SKEWED MORALITY I HAVE EVER HEARD.

So basically, it's ok to murder people, rape children, steal from grannies, as long as you say sorry afterwards and 'love jesus'? I'm not gonna make a blanket judgement here, but at least for these particular christians, that is the most selfish religion I have ever come across. That basically says 'Fuck everyone except Jesus' and that you're not loving jesus to be a good person, you're doing it specifically to get into heaven like the selfish, cheap bastard you are. THAT is EXACTLY the type of person who would populate my hell.

[DrHibbert]

Even the math test is better than that religion.

[Jackal]

But all your going to hear is how those Christians aren't anything like the rest of the Christians. And how sad it is that some people don't follow God's words the correct way.

But yet, I still say the Good Christians can't deny that the logic is correct, that you have to love and believe in Jesus to get in, no matter what. (I have no idea.)

If you could just be good and get into Heaven, then why would anyone spend all that time going to church and worshipping?

Why is it better to be forgiven for a sin, than to never have committed it? That makes no sense to me.

[ramblingrose]

Originally posted by Jackal
Why is it better to be forgiven for a sin, than to never have committed it? That makes no sense to me.


The first time I consciously thought "this is rubbish" about christianity was in RE at school. We were doing the prodigal son and I just couldn't get the point. My RE teacher had no good answers for me either. The good samaritan is another good one, Ruth has been having to go on this Catholic teachers course and she's been explaining how shit it all is to me. I wasn't brought up to be religious at all so I'm still easily shocked by some of the ridiculous elements of it.

[Six Ways]

Perzactly. The Prodigal Son is purest bullshit, of the highest calibre. I never got it either. You two ams both right...it makes no sense that forgiveness is better than not having done anything wrong.

[$till LegendaryU2K]

Well OP, from the bible viewpoint, billions of people are in hell. Why? Well:

( Taken from the King James Version )

" Hell = * She-ol or Sheol = Grave = > " THE WORLD OF THE DEAD "

When people die, there is no afterlife, they die and wait for the resurrection that is suppose to take place on the Last day =

Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,

And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

#1 Dont listen to " those christians " who say if you dont change your ways you will be in hell and burn forever.

#2 I think everybody should change their ways, change for the better.....

Thank and good day! :-D :-D

[ramblingrose]

If there is a hell I bet Enya is the assistant manager.

[Six Ways]

OMGLOL

[Saxton]

I guess it's time for a theist to put in his two cents? I'm a Christian, and more specifically, Anabaptist (Mennonite) - but I do not claim to represent these groups with my beliefs. Regardless, here they are:

For me, to be a Christian is to follow the example of Jesus Christ. This involves some pretty radical stuff, like loving your enemy. It's more than being "a really good person", although that's definatly part of it. I think living your life in such a way that it models the life of Christ is to live the most self-actualized life possible. Central pillars of this life must include love, peace, and hope.

I realize that these three things are not commonly associated with the Christian Church. The Church has nobody to blame for this but themselves. Leo Tolstoy insisted that the Church in the world today was possibly the most anti-Christian institution imaginable. And while I tend to think Tolstoy takes this a little too far, I do sympathize.

Back to love, peace, and hope, and faith, and any other "nice" word you wanna stick in here. If these are central to your life, then in some way or another you are following the example of Christ - whether you mean to be modelling Christ or not. In my readings of the Gospels, Jesus seems to put much more emphasis on action, following and discipleship than He does on telling people what to believe. And ultimatley, I tend to think that your actions speak louder than your beliefs. John 3:16 is quoted all the time, but that doesn't mean it's the central theme of the gospels.

Anyway - I don't claim to have the answers. Thankfully, I do not sit on the Judgment Throne. I do not pretend to know who is saved and who is not. But I have every reason to hope that Fab will be in Heaven some day. Based on what I know of Christianity, it doesn't seem impossible that you would be, you know? I don't claim to know that I am going to Heaven, or even that Heaven exists, or what Heaven would look like. Heaven scares me, honestly, and thinking about it is part of the reason I am up at 3 AM typing this. But Fab, I would want you to be in Heaven, and I don't love *half* as well as God does. So like I said, I have every reason to hope... for you, and me, and everybody elese on this board and in the world. And in other worlds too, depending on how you view that "Do Christians believe in Aliens" thread.

:-D

[DrHibbert]

Saxton that was a good post, but I have a couple of questions. First, let's say Fab did make it into heaven (and it happened to be the Christian one that was right). Wouldn't a lot of Christians be angry that a non-believer, non-conformer in most senses of the word got in? I don't know Fab very well, but what if this person didn't even know what the 10 commandments were, did not love his enemies, did not turn the other cheek, etc? What if this person, as great a person as they are, had actually denounced god and Christianity many many times? Could Fab's general goodness overcome that?

2nd question: What about the Christian people who follow all of the requirements, believe in the lord, go to church, but are truly awful people?

[ramblingrose]

Surely if you were denied entry to heaven on the grounds of not eating fish on a Friday or something that would make a mockery of the whole forgiveness thing?
I had something cleverer to say but it took me so long I got kicked out and now I can't remember it.

[Saxton]

Originally posted by DrHibbert
Saxton that was a good post, but I have a couple of questions. First, let's say Fab did make it into heaven (and it happened to be the Christian one that was right). Wouldn't a lot of Christians be angry that a non-believer, non-conformer in most senses of the word got in? I don't know Fab very well, but what if this person didn't even know what the 10 commandments were, did not love his enemies, did not turn the other cheek, etc? What if this person, as great a person as they are, had actually denounced god and Christianity many many times? Could Fab's general goodness overcome that?

2nd question: What about the Christian people who follow all of the requirements, believe in the lord, go to church, but are truly awful people?

#1: Well, I'm not sure being mad is something anybody would have to worry about in Heaven. But if it is, I would say that yes, some Christians would get mad. Like in Jesus' parable of the prodigal son - the son who was always loyal becomes jealous of the party thrown for the son who comes back. But I'm thinking these people would just need to suck it up and deal.

The short answer to whether not Fab's good deeds can overcome his blasphemies or whatever, the answer is no. I believe, as most Christians do, that Salvation is a gift of grace and love. I believe that nothing I ever do will justify me... in God's eyes, and ultimately in my own. It is my sincere hope that God will give even those who spurn God's gift (or simply don't believe in such a gift) that grace regardless. Which is why I believe Fab may well dwell in Heaven eternally (if anyone does).

I actually think it's possible that Fab could be a better follower of Christ than myself without believing in God. I'd have to think about this more, but I don't see why this wouldn't be possible. If everybody felt this way, maybe Christians wouldn't be seen as "holier-than-thou" all the time.

#2: I don't consider Christians who are really awful people to be Christians. A Chrisian is literally a "little Christ", and Christ simply was not an awful person.

[Six Ways]

Oooh! Oooh! I have one! What if I'm genetically predisposed to becoming a huge schizo, and end up doing very, veeeeeerrrrrrrrry bad things? I mean, I wasn't given much of a chance by god to be a good person there was I?

[ramblingrose]

That won't work in court Luke. But it's a good question, and what about people who have really terrible lives like Charles Manson? I'm not a Charles Manson apologist, he was just the only example I could think of off the top of my hairdo.

[Herr Lipp]

What about them? The scores of abused children out there that didn;t become murderers managed okay didnt they?

P.S. I'm a kind person. Should heaven and hel exist I'll be mighty fucked off if I dont make it too heaven.

[Jackal]

Billy hasn't murdered anyone yet, that we know of.

[Six Ways]

Hey, I'm not saying they all do bad things, just that it's not at all fair if they have to accomplish the same things in life to get into heaven as more sane people.

It's like telling a cripple he ain't goin' to heaven for losing the 100m sprint.

[Six Ways]

Oh, and Ciona, yes it will! Haven't you heard of pleading insanity?

[ramblingrose]

It didn't work for Peter Sutcliffe...

[Fab]

Legal insanity is quite different from medical insanity, though if someone is medically insane then it's likely that it would be decided that they're not fit to stand trial. If I'd been studying like I'm supposed to I could go on and on about legal insanity. I do remember that if you sleepwalk or are epileptic or are even just diabetic you could plead insanity, the downside is that you'll probably be locked up in a mental institute for a long time. Diabetes is a funny one, if you forget to take your insulin and go hyperclycemic you can plead insanity, but if you accidntally take too much and go hypoglycemic then you can't, the reasoning is that the latter is self induced, though both would mitigate your case even if you were found guilty.

heh, seems I do remember a fair bit.

[Six Ways]

Study bitch! Or no Manchester for you!

[ramblingrose]

What are the grounds for declaring someone insane? I haven't got the book in front of me, but for example Peter Sutcliffe was considered insane (or near enough) by the psychiatrists who examined him prior to the trial, yet the presiding judge managed to put him on proper trial. I am not au fait with legal terms, is that coming across? Anyway.

[Fab]

it's mostly just defences I've not looked at yet. I've been studying, just not covered everything yet, especially in law. in physics I've been doing a past paper a week and book questions, and in maths I've done everything except stuff in x,y,z.

[Fab]

Originally posted by ramblingrose
What are the grounds for declaring someone insane? I haven't got the book in front of me, but for example Peter Sutcliffe was considered insane (or near enough) by the psychiatrists who examined him prior to the trial, yet the presiding judge managed to put him on proper trial. I am not au fait with legal terms, is that coming across? Anyway. yeah, it sounds like the defence was trying to prove that he wasn't fit to stand trial, but the judge probably just bowed to the public who wanted to see someone sent to prison for all the murders, I don't think there was any other reason it was decided he could stand trial, though I don't really know the ins and outs of it all. We don't study that that much though, it was mostly just defences for people who are standing trial.

[ramblingrose]

He didn't mention any visions or auditory hallucinations for quite a while and his wife had previously had a schizophrenic breakdown where she claimed to be the second coming of christ. It's also alleged that he was often heard saying he was going to pretend to be mad to get "10 years in a loony bin" while he was on remand. It seems to be generally accepted now that he was faking, but now he is bonkers he doesn't take his medication and says he's fine. If the police hadn't fucked up when they arrested him I don't think they would have taken the insanity plea as seriously as they did. Sorry, it's a pet subject of mine. If you haven't died of boredom read Michael Bilton's book about the police and the trial, it's right interesting so it is.
Sorry.

[Fab]

Hence the Peter Sutcliffe office supplies? What else is available in the range?

[ramblingrose]

well, the compliment slip is the best one, but there's also some notelets, envelopes and high quality writing paper with a sort of watermarked pattern. Ruth made some Fred and Rose thank you cards as well which turned out rather jauntily.

[Fab]

You should go down to the corn exchange and sell them to the goths.

[ramblingrose]

We were thinking if we did some with the Manson family and Richard Ramirez and stuff, kids would probably buy it. I really want something but I can't think what it is. It might be custard but then again it might not.

[Fab]

My friend Charlotte had to have "man custard" explained to her.

[Six Ways]

Originally posted by Fab
My friend Charlotte had to have "man custard" explained to her.

'Strue. Graphically.

[ramblingrose]

Thank goodness I know what that means.


btw, it was custard but now I think I might die. And I've just been stunned by Aretha Franklin's bosom region.