On Revolutions

[Destrokshon Boy]

right here s something else you can help me figure out.


everytime i read or hear about the french or the russian or the american revolution (etc), there's always a hint of grandeur to it. everytime i read something written by french authors on napoleon, they sort of add this 'thank god this happened' tone to it. they absolutely adore the idea that france had a fight with everyone and , well, not surprisingly napoleons tomb is this gigantic monstruosity in champs elysees or something like that. everytime americans speak of the Civil War, they attach this 'well this is part of our great history' tone to it. when the history channel does somthing on julius caesar's conquests, same thing. let's not get into ww2, which happened not that long ago.

it seems as though , in the western world's psyche, these bloody, gory, long and painful wars which killed thousands if not millions are seen as majestic, grandiose things that we should be proud of. after all, we make movies, video games and battle recreations of them, so fascinated our society is by them.


my question is, how are today's (and by today i mean now now now now 14th october 2005) painful bloody wars any differet from the aforementioned ? why do napoleon's wars deserve a museum and endless history books praising his tactical genius, yet the civil war in angola or in sierra leone are shrugged off as mindless murder by lesser civilizations ? the media takes a 'i wish those children could be quiet now' tone with the darfur war or the guerilla in colombia, but if they were to run something on the Shogun wars (medieval japan), they wont stop talking about how cool the samurais were and how respectful everyone was and how long it takes to do a katana knife. nevermind the heads that these swords cut off, nevermind the inevitable rapes and looting and murdering that the majestic shogun wars surely caused (there s even video games on it), nevermind the fact that the country was in so called 'humanitarian crisis' for fucking 500 years if you compare it to today's standard, all those sad facts are somewhat erased from memory and the bloody gory wars are only remembered for their coolness and are seen as a proud part of our history.

why ? what am i missing ?

[Spaced]

I don't agree that there is currently a generalsied glorification of war. In most cases where it does occur, it is largely used to stir nationalistic feelings, especially to support a (often conservative) government. At most other times, especially at memorial times, I think there is curently an acceptance of the great losses of war.

In other terms, history is largely written by the victors, and when that's not the case, it's blatantly re-written to make it more palatable to the general population it's aimed at (see Japanese view on WWII history). As with all things, you have to examine both sides of the argument before you can make a rational decision.

[Narcissistic Nihilist]

History is written by the winners, and therefore will only reflect their side. Almost always, all wars fought have been won by the "goodies", or so it is perceived in history.

The only exception to this I can recall right now is the Spanish civil war which is the most fascinating war of all.

[Herr Lipp]

I would never say they were glorified, but it's easy to forget people that died hundreds and hundreds of years ago. Napoleon was a legend, but unfortunately he didnt prepare well enough for Nelson, and got battered. He did do enough good IMO, law systems and what not, to go down in the history books, French and other, as a ....whats the best word.....revolutionary? you know what I mean....

[Squirrel]

Originally posted by Narcissistic Nihilist
History is written by the winners, and therefore will only reflect their side. Almost always, all wars fought have been won by the "goodies", or so it is perceived in history.

The only exception to this I can recall right now is the Spanish civil war which is the most fascinating war of all.

All I know about it is what I read from Homage To Catalonia, but that really got me interested.

[Squirrel]

Originally posted by Destrokshon Boy
(there s even video games on it)

That made me smile a bit too.

[Destrokshon Boy]

so u think that when we watch something like saving private ryan, we are being entertained because we are horrified of what war is like, as opposed to being entertained because its simply fun to watch the americans get diced in omaha beach ?


i personally go for the second one.

[Herr Lipp]

It's not fun to watch people die, you idiot. It's entertaining because SPR was based on teh accounts of Veterans who did something you couldnt even imagine having the balls for you prick. Do you reckon you could run into teh path of an MG42 machine gun? Huh? When I watch that opening scene it puts a lump in my throat even now, those brave Americans, Canadians and British troops deserve far more respect than chumps like you offer them.

[Narcissistic Nihilist]

Originally posted by Walter Sopchak
It's not fun to watch people die, you idiot. It's entertaining because SPR was based on teh accounts of Veterans who did something you couldnt even imagine having the balls for you prick. Do you reckon you could run into teh path of an MG42 machine gun? Huh? When I watch that opening scene it puts a lump in my throat even now, those brave Americans, Canadians and British troops deserve far more respect than chumps like you offer them.
Its fun to me!

Saving Private Ryan completely rewrote history, its a total work of fiction. There is nothing brave about WW2. I dont respect anyone who kills, so I dont respect any soldier. Theyre all idiots.

[Herr Lipp]

Originally posted by Destrokshon Boy
but if they were to run something on the Shogun wars (medieval japan), they wont stop talking about how cool the samurais

That's complete fucking bullshit :lol: I think you're just a dumbass who fails to grasp narrative meaning. Of course you're going to describe Admirals Nelson and Napoleon in glowing terms, as they were military geniuses. Not once in any documentary has anyone ever said it was "cool" for people to die. How can you make a thread that is based on lies, you moron. Suck my cock.

[Narcissistic Nihilist]

Originally posted by Walter Sopchak
That's complete fucking bullshit :lol: I think you're just a dumbass who fails to grasp narrative meaning. Of course you're going to describe Admirals Nelson and Napoleon in glowing terms, as they were military geniuses. Not once in any documentary has anyone ever said it was "cool" for people to die. How can you make a thread that is based on lies, you moron. Suck my cock.
No, you'll find thats absolutely true. Check how many copies of samurai swords are sold over the internet alone. Samurai's=cool, War=glorified, Teenage boys=wet themselves in their naiveity.

[Herr Lipp]

Prove it. I'll admit I find samurai's "cool" to use the word. I respect them for their code of honour, their impeccable training and their skills. But if I'm watching the sort of one-sided documentaries forcing me to believe that they are cool dude, then I'll realise I'm watching a fucking shit documentary, probably American. I decide for myself whether figures of war are "cool" based on looking at the information given to me. Not some chumps view.

It's not a COMPLETE work of fiction. The beach obstacles, weapons, equipment, vehicles, enemy bunkers are all genuine. The story couldve been pulled out of someones ass, doesnt bother me, but the imagery I have in my head of June 6th 1944 was fantastically realised in the opening sequence of that film. It's beautiful. Some unemployed 29 year old's opinion reeeeeaaaaaalllllllyyyy doesn;t concern me :)

Veterans don;t need your respect Danny, if you're too shallow to realise how differently your life would've panned out had it not been for those brave men. So you think it would've been better if we had not decided to kill the Germans, and joined the Nazi's? What WOULD you have done? Sweet fuck all, because that's all you're ever gonna do Danny, sit on your ass, in front of your computer, bitching to the world about what's wrong with it (never what you'd do to rectify it) and who's an asshole (in ever so original ways).

The funny thing is you wouldnt have even had those liberties (being unemployed and sponging off the government, free speech etc) had it not been for them! So really, anything you say in reply can be laughed off by simply looking at the facts.

[Jackal]

But, Danny if China wanted to take over Britain next week. How do you think it should be taken care of?

Just a question, not a provocation. I am for peace too, but if China won't take no for an answer, should the British gov. just say, "ok" and sign the country over?

[Destrokshon Boy]

Originally posted by Walter Sopchak
Prove it. I'll admit I find samurai's "cool" to use the word. I respect them for their code of honour, their impeccable training and their skills. But if I'm watching the sort of one-sided documentaries forcing me to believe that they are cool dude, then I'll realise I'm watching a fucking shit documentary, probably American. I decide for myself whether figures of war are "cool" based on looking at the information given to me. Not some chumps view.

It's not a COMPLETE work of fiction. The beach obstacles, weapons, equipment, vehicles, enemy bunkers are all genuine. The story couldve been pulled out of someones ass, doesnt bother me, but the imagery I have in my head of June 6th 1944 was fantastically realised in the opening sequence of that film. It's beautiful. Some unemployed 29 year old's opinion reeeeeaaaaaalllllllyyyy doesn;t concern me :)

Veterans don;t need your respect Danny, if you're too shallow to realise how differently your life would've panned out had it not been for those brave men. So you think it would've been better if we had not decided to kill the Germans, and joined the Nazi's? What WOULD you have done? Sweet fuck all, because that's all you're ever gonna do Danny, sit on your ass, in front of your computer, bitching to the world about what's wrong with it (never what you'd do to rectify it) and who's an asshole (in ever so original ways).

The funny thing is you wouldnt have even had those liberties (being unemployed and sponging off the government, free speech etc) had it not been for them! So really, anything you say in reply can be laughed off by simply looking at the facts.

imbecil

this is not about respect. i am not arguing whether veterans or movies should be respected or not. what i am questioning is whether we are entertained or not by war and its depictions in movies and video games. maybe YOU are not entertained by it, but it so happens ur nothing and so u shouldnt base ur personal opinioon and pretend the entire world thinks like u.

if u look at the media and u look at what sells and what doesnt sell, war and sex is up there. we love war, hell u brits are in one right now. and when we watch a movie like deer hunter or saving private ryan, maybe if ur above 60 it will strike a nerve but if ur young the first thing u will think of is the 'coolness' factor of fighting and total war and bombing. this is perfectly normal in us humans as we used to fight each other all the time when we re cavement, its in our blood, and things such as football or wrestling is just s pussified version of war.

if war really were such an unpleasant subject it would not be so popular, i dont think its a coincidence that the history channel airs ww2 stuff over and over again as opposed to, say, the french philosophical movement in pre descartes times or something boring like that.

[Narcissistic Nihilist]

Originally posted by Walter Sopchak
Prove it. I'll admit I find samurai's "cool" to use the word. I respect them for their code of honour, their impeccable training and their skills. But if I'm watching the sort of one-sided documentaries forcing me to believe that they are cool dude, then I'll realise I'm watching a fucking shit documentary, probably American. I decide for myself whether figures of war are "cool" based on looking at the information given to me. Not some chumps view.

It's not a COMPLETE work of fiction. The beach obstacles, weapons, equipment, vehicles, enemy bunkers are all genuine. The story couldve been pulled out of someones ass, doesnt bother me, but the imagery I have in my head of June 6th 1944 was fantastically realised in the opening sequence of that film. It's beautiful. Some unemployed 29 year old's opinion reeeeeaaaaaalllllllyyyy doesn;t concern me :)

Veterans don;t need your respect Danny, if you're too shallow to realise how differently your life would've panned out had it not been for those brave men. So you think it would've been better if we had not decided to kill the Germans, and joined the Nazi's? What WOULD you have done? Sweet fuck all, because that's all you're ever gonna do Danny, sit on your ass, in front of your computer, bitching to the world about what's wrong with it (never what you'd do to rectify it) and who's an asshole (in ever so original ways).

The funny thing is you wouldnt have even had those liberties (being unemployed and sponging off the government, free speech etc) had it not been for them! So really, anything you say in reply can be laughed off by simply looking at the facts.
Thats because they werent cool. Neither are your beloved veterans. They were all murderers who dont deserve respect. The "information" you recieve is all biased anyway. Those allied soliders who fought in the war were as prejudiced as the Nazis they fought against. Dont start talking shit like they fought for me. They fought for themselves.

Oh im sure there were tiny parts which are true, but the fact the mission they undertook wasnt taken by US soldiers. Oh, and Im not 29, Im front of the computer less than you, (Mr chav-scum hypocrite once more) or unemployed, but thanks for your lies. :yes:

Sure I wont do a thing, becasue no one deserves me to do a thing. I learned the world isnt worth saving a long time ago.

Oh and getting what you deserve out of the welfare system isnt a liberty, its a criminal offence. Thats like saying I wouldnt be able to commit murder if it wasnt for these WW2 idiots. Which is totally wrong anyway. Even if the Nazis won, they wouldnt have survived very long and the world would be pretty much the same now. What "facts" are these? You mean the jaundiced patriotic garbage that gets jammed dowm your throat when you suck your country's cock? :lol:

But then, it wouldnt be like you to get things right.

[Narcissistic Nihilist]

Originally posted by Jackal
But, Danny if China wanted to take over Britain next week. How do you think it should be taken care of?

Just a question, not a provocation. I am for peace too, but if China won't take no for an answer, should the British gov. just say, "ok" and sign the country over?
I wouldnt care. I dont think their should be such things as countries anyway.

I think all countries should surrender soverignity to an internationally elected government. So basically, yes.

[Narcissistic Nihilist]

Originally posted by Destrokshon Boy
imbecil

this is not about respect. i am not arguing whether veterans or movies should be respected or not. what i am questioning is whether we are entertained or not by war and its depictions in movies and video games. maybe YOU are not entertained by it, but it so happens ur nothing and so u shouldnt base ur personal opinioon and pretend the entire world thinks like u.

if u look at the media and u look at what sells and what doesnt sell, war and sex is up there. we love war, hell u brits are in one right now. and when we watch a movie like deer hunter or saving private ryan, maybe if ur above 60 it will strike a nerve but if ur young the first thing u will think of is the 'coolness' factor of fighting and total war and bombing. this is perfectly normal in us humans as we used to fight each other all the time when we re cavement, its in our blood, and things such as football or wrestling is just s pussified version of war.

if war really were such an unpleasant subject it would not be so popular, i dont think its a coincidence that the history channel airs ww2 stuff over and over again as opposed to, say, the french philosophical movement in pre descartes times or something boring like that.
Humans are animals, and violence turns us on, its in our nature. Of course, the race is too arrogant to accept this and likes to think themselves above animals, but then its that arrogance which makes humans so stupid.

Oh, and Descartes may have been a coward, but boring he was not.

[Jackal]

Yikes, Danny, you really want us to all live in peace and be happy.

That would be nice if we could all just get along.

If people would stop being fuck-faces we could too, that's the insane part about our existance.

I think within 2 generations the whole planet could be totally different and great. We could stop doing the bad things like destruction of the planet, fighting about oil, food, religion, beliefs, race, etc. And start new with a whole generation of children being taught only love and peace and how to disolve arguments in a nice way.
And most importantly, not teach them anything about hate.

I'm sure we all think of how different things could be. But people are just idiots who don't want to be wrong ever or have to concede to anyone. We are just animal's and if we lived as so, we would be happier.

Human nature is so tricky. I have found that helping other's and trying to bring big swell changes usually turns out ugly. I feel great for "doing my part" and then I feel angry when the needy keeps on needing.

[kendra]

I live in Virginia and we've talked about the Civil War in school and other educational functions so many times that I want to die. But not once have I heard it celebrated by anyone who doesn't also have several trucks rusting on blocks in his/her front yard and have a mullet. It's a part of history, yes, but it's not exactly something that any American is taking pride in.

[Narcissistic Nihilist]

Originally posted by Jackal
Yikes, Danny, you really want us to all live in peace and be happy.

That would be nice if we could all just get along.

If people would stop being fuck-faces we could too, that's the insane part about our existance.

I think within 2 generations the whole planet could be totally different and great. We could stop doing the bad things like destruction of the planet, fighting about oil, food, religion, beliefs, race, etc. And start new with a whole generation of children being taught only love and peace and how to disolve arguments in a nice way.
And most importantly, not teach them anything about hate.

I'm sure we all think of how different things could be. But people are just idiots who don't want to be wrong ever or have to concede to anyone. We are just animal's and if we lived as so, we would be happier.

Human nature is so tricky. I have found that helping other's and trying to bring big swell changes usually turns out ugly. I feel great for "doing my part" and then I feel angry when the needy keeps on needing.
The core things which prevents the further evolution of humanity: selfishness, arrogance and greed.

Things will only get worse, because humans are too stupid.

[ems]

Originally posted by Destrokshon Boy
imbecil




HAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHA I find it utterly HILARIOUS that you're calling someone an imbecilE, and yet you can't even SPELL the fucking word PROPERLY!!!!!! LOL how ironic :-D

[Destrokshon Boy]

Originally posted by ems
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHA I find it utterly HILARIOUS that you're calling someone an imbecilE, and yet you can't even SPELL the fucking word PROPERLY!!!!!! LOL how ironic :-D

no, actually, it's in spanish.

but you couldnt have known that. i guess i could have put it in italics.

[Herr Lipp]

Danny you make me laugh :lol: your ill-formed 6th form philosophy on the human race is beyond laughable.

[Narcissistic Nihilist]

Originally posted by Walter Sopchak
Danny you make me laugh :lol: your ill-formed 6th form philosophy on the human race is beyond laughable.
its beyond laughable because its its serious and its the truth.

Since everything you say is wrong, I thank you, bullshit machine, for proving me right. :yes:

Oh, thats DEGREE philosophy, chav-scum, but then I couldnt expect you to even get that right. :lol:

[Herr Lipp]

I know 13 year olds more clued up on teh world than you :rolleyes:

stop moaning, or go kill yourself. Nihilist or nihilist-pretenders like you that continue to breathe air are full of shit.

Why bother having a girlfriend if human existence is futile? You chat so much bullshit its unreal....

[Narcissistic Nihilist]

Originally posted by Walter Sopchak
I know 13 year olds more clued up on teh world than you :rolleyes:

stop moaning, or go kill yourself. Nihilist or nihilist-pretenders like you that continue to breathe air are full of shit.

Why bother having a girlfriend if human existence is futile? You chat so much bullshit its unreal....
Oh dear! you STILL cant get anything right.

Although I am delighted that I have wound you up so much that you resort to such pathetic childish lies, you dont know any 13 year old more "clued up" than me. Do those 13 year olds know how to spell "the"? :lol:

Considering you dont have a fucking clue, how "clued up" I am. (Pun intended).

I am neither a nihilist nor a "nihilist pretender", whatever the fuck one of those is. Your articulation is simply atrocious.

Once again you prove yourself full of shit and unable to get your facts straight. Its very sad.:cry:

Ok, not really. I just laugh at your idiocy. I pity that solitary overworked brain cell of yours. It must be SOOO lonely :lol:

[revgoozen]

Originally posted by Destrokshon Boy
so u think that when we watch something like saving private ryan, we are being entertained because we are horrified of what war is like, as opposed to being entertained because its simply fun to watch the americans get diced in omaha beach ?


i personally go for the second one.

it's funny you mention saving private ryan. when i saw that opening fight sequence, it horrified me. it was the first time i thought about any war as being a real, horrific event. of course as the film progresses, things get totally sentimental, but that opening sequence, totally blew my mind. now when i see those old civil war pictures of the dead, and they are posed a certain way in the field, it freaks me out too. when you consider how difficult it is to manipulate a dead body, and how long it took to prep a single photograph, the guys taking those pictures were doing really freakishly sick work.

[Joliet's Green Onions]

humans love copetition and violence...war has both, and when this isn't avalable people turn to sports


note: i see that Narcissistic Nihilist has posted like this too

[Joliet's Green Onions]

humans love copetition and violence...war has both, and when this isn't avalable people turn to sports

[Herr Lipp]

Originally posted by Narcissistic Nihilist
Ok, not really. I just laugh at your idiocy. I pity that solitary overworked brain cell of yours. It must be SOOO lonely :lol:

Sorry *looks around* you're under the impression that was amusing?! :lol: Now that's funny! Making paragraphs out of your points doesnt make them anymore relevant/true, dickhead!

[Herr Lipp]

Danny's a fucking tool, not least because every successful country in the World would be fuck all without wars. The bullshit hippy scenario you oh so crave wouldnt even fucking work, you can't allow your neighbours to be greedy and walk all over you. Theres spineless cunts like you for people to walk over.

[Narcissistic Nihilist]

It takes you 6 days to respond. 6 FUCKING DAYS!! And all you can come up with is more bullshit and lies?

Thats truly pathetic.

[Jackal]

Originally posted by Narcissistic Nihilist
The core things which prevents the further evolution of humanity: selfishness, arrogance and greed.

Things will only get worse, because humans are too stupid.

It isn't stupid to want some reciprocation from the people you've been giving too. It's human nature.

People are selfish, arrogant, and greedy. The only way to save humanity is to evolve out of ourselves and become harmless little rabbits! Then get eaten and become excrement and erode into soil.