king's crossing lyrics gripe

[Oh Well Okay]

i almost 100% positive that it is "watch them shelves" as in selling albums.

[TheKeenGuy]

Originally posted by Oh Well Okay
i almost 100% positive that it is "watch them shelves" as in selling albums.
It sounds a little like "watch the shelves" however that doesn't rhyme and more importantly it doesn't make sense. Put it in context with the next two lines "the game looks easy/that's why it sells," and it can only make sense in the context of a shell game.

So it doesn't matter how it sounds, it's "shells."

[Oh Well Okay]

i wholly disagree. it sounds to me like he is subtly critiquing the pressure to sell records that was forced upon him by a major label deal. i take it as he detests the need to see one's albums "fly off the shelf." true, it looks easy, therefore many get stuck in this neverending cycle of commerical pressure.

[Loveless]

Sounds like "shells" to me.

[AngryPecker]

Originally posted by Oh Well Okay
i wholly disagree. it sounds to me like he is subtly critiquing the pressure to sell records that was forced upon him by a major label deal. i take it as he detests the need to see one's albums "fly off the shelf." true, it looks easy, therefore many get stuck in this neverending cycle of commerical pressure.

I wish my ass sounded that good

[Oh Well Okay]

oh it does, angry pecker.

[preciousonlyson]

i think it's shelves :yes:


at least the version i sing in the car.

[Sweet Nothing]

here's a hint:

and every wave is tidal
if you hang around you're going to get wet


clearly an ocean reference, it would make sense to continue with it. Though the shelves does make some sense, I think it's shells.

[RainDog]

I don't think it matters a whole hell of a lot, but 'shells' seems the obvious choice.

The "shell game" is the one where the huckster has three shells, or cups, puts a ball or something in one, mixes them up, and you have to guess which one the ball's in when he's done. They're notorious for being rigged, because there's almost always an assistant disguised as a passerby who will "win" a few rounds, and get naieve tourists, etc. suckered into playing, thinking they have a chance. It's essentially a total scam, but it's been around for millennia because it looks so damn easy.

Okay, like I said, I don't think it matters a whole lot, because either one doesn't change the overall meaning of the lyric, but I ate WAY too much turkey, and I'm kind of stuck in this chair for a while...

[*evildewey]

funny, this is one of the parts I could never make out from the live versions and at first I didn't pay attention but when I listened to the album on headphones I clearly heard "watch through shells". it shocked me so much to hear it so clearly I actually listened to that line several times again and I'm pretty sure that's what he sang.

I also hear "the method acting that pays my bills/keeps the fat man feeding in beverly hills" as in what I do only supports the proccess of making the rich even richer. it differs from every transcription I've seen online but it makes way more sense to me.

then again, english isn't even my native language so I'm probably wrong.

[Matty,Oh?]

Um, it's shells. Sorry.

[Redroses9]

It's definetely shells

[Matthew_Brent]

i do believe that it is shells, it is a reference to a shell game

thats how i play it,

[joshuastar]

totally shells....

a swindle game like 3card monty. described very well a few posts up.

and didntcha ever watch the price is right? they play that game on there...the idea is to watch the shells, and remember where the marble is...easy!

joshua*

[solveig]

so not shelves

[cat]

This is really stupid because it doesn't make sense, but the first few times I listened to the song, I thought it was shells in the bullet sense.. watch the empty shells coming back after firing.. it totally doesn't make sense now, but I kind of pictured a trench warfare dodging kind of thing..
it made sense in a sketchy way
*ponders*

[Lexmarker]

Cat!
I thought it was shell in the bullet sense!
it was clear for me that it was a suicide kinda song.
But what is the hole song about?
the music industry?

[Aidan]

it's shells. As in the game where you try to find the bean, nut or whatever when the person swaps the shells around and then you pick which you think it's under.

Harder to win at than you might think with a person that's good at it.

[preciousonlyson]

i still think it's shelves.


and i'll be DAMNED if aint "I've got bitten finger-nails and a head full of the Pabst"


:p

[meepmeep]

it's 'sugar lick me up'

[cigar store indian]

Originally posted by meepmeep
it's 'sugar lick me up' does modified arts have a bar? sorry :offtopic:

[meepmeep]

Originally posted by cigar store indian
does modified arts have a bar? sorry :offtopic:

hehe. no. and i'm not drunk. :-D

wanna go to casey's and have a drink w/ me tonight? i'm b.o.r.e.d.

[Roosevelt]

Although "Shells" makes the most sense, there is a definit V sound in the end. Perhapse he sung it as a cross between the two "Shell'ves" so to speak.

[cigar store indian]

Originally posted by meepmeep
hehe. no. and i'm not drunk. :-D

wanna go to casey's and have a drink w/ me tonight? i'm b.o.r.e.d. it doesn't ?! ... weak. Well i would love to , but i have some date thing tonight ... i am a nervous wreck. Alcohol sounds very good right about now.

[meepmeep]

Originally posted by cigar store indian
it doesn't ?! ... weak. Well i would love to , but i have some date thing tonight ... i am a nervous wreck. Alcohol sounds very good right about now.

have fun! they have water & soda....i guess that doesn't quite help. :darn:

(we usually sneek a couple of beers there & drink them in the parking lot)

[cigar store indian]

Originally posted by meepmeep
have fun! they have water & soda....i guess that doesn't quite help. :darn: ahh, no it doesnt... but i'll try, unfortunately first dates are very nervewracking and whatnot so i guess i'll have to pregame before i go out. :-p

[cigar store indian]

Originally posted by meepmeep
(we usually sneek a couple of beers there & drink them in the parking lot) :yes:

[Chemical Soup]

OK, so I'm probably wrong but I hear,

"The game looks easy, thats why it sells"

ie Elliott is by now a "pop/Rock/music" star and it isn't what he wanted/expected, it looks easy, thats why 90% of kids want to be a rock star, the game is being a music star, "It looks easy", It sells because everyone wants it, that is the selling of the game! and they think it's easy, but he is playing the game and it brings on things that if your're not there you cant imagine how hard they must be.
I do hope that makes sense to someone, its just my take on it and I try not to analyse that hard usually cos it makes my head hurt:(

[G.C]

Maybe it has double meaning? i.e. bullet shells and the shell game? He uses the same word several times, for instance--
"Everything is gone but the echo and the burst of a shell"
"Spent bullets"
etc.

[mountainsofhugs]

i'm not the only one who assumes "you're going to get wet" refers to smoking crack, am i?

[the brew]

Originally posted by preciousonlyson
i still think it's shelves.


and i'll be DAMNED if aint "I've got bitten finger-nails and a head full of the Pabst"


:p i totally agree with you, scott. it *is* shelves.

what the hell is a shell game anyway? and when the hell did "making sense" ever matter?

*goes back to watching shelves*

[finneganwakes]

Originally posted by mountainsofhugs
i'm not the only one who assumes "you're going to get wet" refers to smoking crack, am i?

He wasn't smoking crack or apparently even thinking about it when he wrote this song. It's at least as old as 99.

[TheKeenGuy]

Originally posted by mountainsofhugs
smoking crack, am i?
Indeed. Within your question, the answer lies.

[mountainsofhugs]

he wasn't using heroin when he wrote needle in the hay or cocaine when he wrote the white lady loves you more, either. in a song already containing drug references, i don't think it's a stretch.

[wow&flutter]

duh, it's shell, in his spare time Elliott liked to play tourist-swindling games.

[wow&flutter]

"you're going to get wet" refers to the types of bar contests that Elliott liked to participate in, where you wear a white t-shirt and get sprayed with a fire hose. Yea.

[Luce]

woah

i love arguing-over-lyrics threads :-p

[preciousonlyson]

Originally posted by the brew
and when the hell did "making sense" ever matter?


chicken spit gravy! :crazy: :yes:

[the brew]

Originally posted by preciousonlyson
chicken spit gravy! :crazy: :yes: hi potty scotty. :darn: i miss you. where are you even??????

[preciousonlyson]

Originally posted by the brew
where are you even??????

in your pm box :eek:

[the brew]

Originally posted by preciousonlyson
in your pm box :eek: how you fit in there? i try and get in yours now.

*squishy*

[The Crippled Silence]

Originally posted by FadedInTheLightOfTheMoon
Although "Shells" makes the most sense, there is a definit V sound in the end. Perhapse he sung it as a cross between the two "Shell'ves" so to speak. That there is, I haven't commented cos I've been listening again and again, with headphones. I'm 100% sure it's "shelves". Much of the song is a commentary on the record industry ("the method actor that pays my bills keeps the fat man feeding in Beverly Hills"), so this makes complete sense. Also, I don't think it's a wave in a tradtional sense. More of a marketing sense. In marketing, they follow waves of what's popular at the moment and invest whatever they can in whichever artists they feel will help them ride those waves.

So yes, it's shelves. It makes complete and utter sense to the song as a whole. Not to mention, if you listen closely enough, there's definitely that 'v'. :)

[skeletor]

I would have to disagree with the crippled silence. Shells just makes sense: It goes along with "The game looks easy." (shell game) and it rhymes with "That's why it sells." If you want to interpret the song being about the record industry I have no problem with that, but I don't interpret it that way. It is much more of a drug song to me and so that to me negates your supporting evidence anyway.

Also listen to live versions of the song. I don't ever hear a V and it is much more clear on live versions without all of the other instruments clouding the sound.

[The Crippled Silence]

It's about being an actor, as in portraying something for somebody else, in this case record execs (the fat men in Beverly Hills). The game is the recording industry, and he talks about how many folks get easily hooked into it (the game looks easy). The wave refers to those in marketing...the waves that record labels follow. Toward the middle of the song, he accepts a form of defeat. And then, THEN, it becomes a drug song. The song is not just about one thing. It is far more complex than that. I do think that lyrically, it's one of Elliott's masterworks.

And I guarantee you that Elliott wasn't talking about "the game of shells". The song is a masterpiece lyrically. Please, don't do yourself a disservice. Listen again and listen carefully.

-Alex

[beaver]

I agree with you, The Crippled Silence. Whilst it's hard to make out a "v" sound on the album version, even with it slowed down, shelves comes through very clearly on the Northsix show, and, though a little less apparently, the Henry Fonda Theater shows.

Course, then there's the fact that it just makes sense (yeah, even to a complete and utter cock).

[The Crippled Silence]

Originally posted by beaver
I agree with you, The Crippled Silence. Whilst it's hard to make out a "v" sound on the album version, even with it slowed down, shelves comes through very clearly on the Northsix show, and, though a little less apparently, the Henry Fonda Theater shows.

Course, then there's the fact that it just makes sense (yeah, even to a complete and utter cock). I agree, I just think you conducted yourself rudely. But yes, the 'v' is there. And yes, it doesn't make sense and is not as full and complete and beautiful if misheard. The song is quite breathtaking.

Hang around, Beaver. Just try to remember that people are allowed to disagree. :)

[The Crippled Silence]

Oh and by the way, Oh Well Okay. I think yer owed an apology. But that's just me. I even thought you were wrong till i listened more carefully. And the whole song came together as a cohesive whole. Thanks, i might've missed something beautiful. :yes:

[Oh Well Okay]

thank you, crippled.

[blankfaze]

i'll add my two cents - I've ALWAYS, even since the first live versions I heard, thought it was "shelves".

[skeletor]

whatever... I still think you are all wrong.

[The Crippled Silence]

If you can tell me why him referring to a game of "shells' would make more sense, I'll consider your intepretation. Until then, I think it's utterly wrong.

[skeletor]

Well, I agree partly about your interpretation. I just think that you are selling Elliott a little short. I am aware that Elliott has extremely complex lyrics so I don't know why he can't use a metaphor like a shell game for people who get into something that they shouldn't (drugs, the recording industry, whatever). I just personally feel that the lyrics make much more sense that way. I mean I understand the reference to the record shelves, but I don't understand "All you can do now is watch the SHELVES" If you are a recording artist you do a lot mnore than watch shelves. I also think that the fact that he then refers to a game is also a big hint to me that it is shells as in a shell game. I also think he says shells clearly on the
Feb 1st 2001 show in LA, there is no way I hear shelves there. I guess we will probably never really know unless some handwritten lyrics by Elliott are found so I am happy just having everyone interpret it the way they want to.
That is just my opinion.
John

[The Crippled Silence]

Originally posted by skeletor
I guess we will probably never really know unless some handwritten lyrics by Elliott are found so I am happy just having everyone interpret it the way they want to.
That is just my opinion.
John :yes: You are right. And it's just my opinion, as well. :)

[fwoty oz]

I dunno, shells makes more sense to me in the context of the surrounding lyrics.

Listen to the show at Henry Fonda LA 2-1-03. Clearly no "v" sound at all. Is that conclusive? No, he could've mispronounced it.

edit: just realized skel already pointed out this show, sorry! =)

The shell game makes sense though. What actually happens is out of your control, all you can do is do your best to keep up. That's the metaphor I read it as, in the framework of a song either about the recording industry or an actor (or both!).

That's just my take, though shelves makes sense as well, though it's less poetic.

[Oh Well Okay]

less poetic.

i think that was the direction he was going in...less ambiguous, less oblique.

[fwoty oz]

that's very true.. that's a good point

[Tozzi20]

Originally posted by Sweet Nothing
here's a hint:

and every wave is tidal
if you hang around you're going to get wet


clearly an ocean reference, it would make sense to continue with it. Though the shelves does make some sense, I think it's shells.

Always reminds me of the tidal wave pun from "Busy Bodies" on Costello's ARMED FORCES.

I think it's shells.

[Vinkie]

On the album version it's 100% sure "Shells" there is no 'v' sound in there anywhere.

[The Crippled Silence]

This is so fucking frustrating. :)

[Ian]

whats a shell game?

aren't these the best lyrics of all time?

[Phat Money]

You "shelves" guys are crazy, It's shells. It only somewhat sounds like it has a v because of the sound of the two vocal tracks being sung just a little differently. I swear, listen again.

[Oh Well Okay]

You "shelves" guys are crazy, It's shells. It only somewhat sounds like it has a v because of the sound of the two vocal tracks being sung just a little differently. I swear, listen again.

oh that's it, Phat Money.
*busts a cap*

[Ian]

HOLY FUCKING SHIT

I mean it, holy fucking shit... I always thought it was shelves. But I had no idea what a "shell game" was.

Its shells... man it just so is. Thats like the best lyric of all time. Fuck me. Fuck me senseless. Fuckckaepm pm ml !!!!!!!11!1111oneoneone



all you can do know is watch the shells
the game looks easy, thats why it sells

shell game is the one where you pick the ball from under the three cups right? (i looked it up on google)... i.e. the one you always lose no matter how hard you try, even though it looks easy. like you know, "i'll just write these songs play them to people, how hard could it be?" but then its all a big crushing machine that swallows you up and devours your life and so on and so forth.

and the way the shells thing fits in with the tidal wave metaphor, even though it doesn't even have to....man.

i'm voting for SHELLS '04.

[claireee]

Originally posted by Ian
HOLY FUCKING SHIT

I mean it, holy fucking shit... I always thought it was shelves. But I had no idea what a "shell game" was.

Its shells... man it just so is. Thats like the best lyric of all time. Fuck me. Fuck me senseless. Fuckckaepm pm ml !!!!!!!11!1111oneoneone



all you can do know is watch the shells
the game looks easy, thats why it sells

shell game is the one where you pick the ball from under the three cups right? (i looked it up on google)... i.e. the one you always lose no matter how hard you try, even though it looks easy. like you know, "i'll just write these songs play them to people, how hard could it be?" but then its all a big crushing machine that swallows you up and devours your life and so on and so forth.

and the way the shells thing fits in with the tidal wave metaphor, even though it doesn't even have to....man.

i'm voting for SHELLS '04.


If only the democrats had had your enthusiasm.

[Ian]

Originally posted by claireee
If only the democrats had had your enthusiasm.

Fuck that, didn't you read the thread? Elliott was a Republican.

[claireee]

Originally posted by Ian
Fuck that, didn't you read the thread? Elliott was a Republican.

Oh yes, how could I forget! So sorry!

[the brew]

could......

could elliott have meant......

both?????

he's just fucking cool enough to have.

ambiguity and double meaningness are :yes:

[meepmeep]

Originally posted by Ian
[BI mean it, holy fucking shit... I always thought it was shelves. But I had no idea what a "shell game" was.

Its shells... man it just so is. Thats like the best lyric of all time. Fuck me. Fuck me senseless. Fuckckaepm pm ml !!!!!!!11!1111oneoneone



all you can do know is watch the shells
the game looks easy, thats why it sells

[/B]

i always thought it was shells. elliott was too smart for it to be 'shelves'.

:shrug:

[Roosevelt]

Allthough there is a V sound, i do now believe that it is an effect from the manner in which elliott pronounced his Ss, which often have a V type sound. Within the context of the lyrics themselves i would have to say that Shells makes more sense within the context.

and every wave is tidal - if you hang around
you're going to get wet
i can't prepare for death any more than i already have
all you can do now is watch the shells
the game looks easy that's why it sells

Beach/ocean metaphore -> Shell game metaphore. The first Henry Fonda performance has a slight V sound to it, but the 2nd performance doesn't have such a V sound to it. I would think that if it were shelves that the V sound would be more consisten and profound within the presentation and such.

I am changing my vote to Shells.

[pointyjess]

Um, does anyone out there think that its "stand and deliver, docket said " you know, like a court docket? Because wasn't he just talking about a judge? You know? Because that's how I sing it...or something...back me up addyers?

[Oh Well Okay]

that's a cool one, pointy.

[glorybound]

Originally posted by Oh Well Okay
i almost 100% positive that it is "watch them shelves" as in selling albums.


i've been pondering this for days... listening closely to the lyrics... analyzing the arguments on both sides... and i've decided that I agree with you. Even if it isn't "them shelves" it should be. I personally think that's a much cooler lyric.

[TheKeenGuy]

Originally posted by POINTY!
Um, does anyone out there think that its "stand and deliver, docket said " you know, like a court docket? Because wasn't he just talking about a judge? You know? Because that's how I sing it...or something...back me up addyers?
Actually, now I think it says "Dokken stead," you know, like that rock band Dokken.

I hear Elliott was a huge fan.

[joshuastar]

it most assuredly is Dokken.


joshua*

[Oh Well Okay]

Originally posted by joshuastar
joshua*
awesome

[*evildewey]

so am I the only one who clearly hears him singing "through shells" and not "the shells" on the album version then?

:bag:

[pointyjess]

Originally posted by TheKeenGuy
Actually, now I think it says "Dokken stead," you know, like that rock band Dokken.

I hear Elliott was a huge fan.


...holy crap, you're right!!! :tacos:

[preciousonlyson]

dammit, it is "shells"



*eats crow*

[rocco]

Originally posted by preciousonlyson
i still think it's shelves.


and i'll be DAMNED if aint "I've got bitten finger-nails and a head full of the Pabst"


:p

absolutely.

incidentally, is this why the portlanders are so into pbr? i always wondered about that. because that shit is gross.

[preciousonlyson]

Originally posted by rocco
i always wondered about that. because that shit is gross.

it is totally gross.


sure, it's cheap, but so is kerosene (which, incidentally, tastes better).

[Broke]

I'm sure it's 'shells', but just to pointlessly play Devil's advocate: doesn't anyone also see the possible ocean/shelf connection (going back the 'every wave is tidal' mention).

*why does this thread piss me off?*

[Broke]

OT, maybe, but I just read that "parachute" is slang for heroin and "gun" is slang for needle.

[schruthensis]

although before i found this forum i hadn't questioned it being anything other than "shelves" many have posted some pretty compelling reasons to think it is "shells"... so it may be shells

but lets not forget Elliott’s knack for double, triple or even quadruple meanings (as in "between the bars" where I would argue that all of the following equations were deliberate: bar=place, bars=prison, bars=crib, bars=music)

so he is probably deliberately blurring the line between the two meanings in "king's crossing" as well.

the context of the two lines:

"I cant prepare for death anymore than I already have
All you can do now is watch the shel(ve/l)s"

suggests that he means shelves... meaning that once he is FINALLY finished writing songs, the only thing left to do is just sit back and watch the albums sell right off the shelves.

"all you can do now" does not suggest a shell game.. he would have said "all you HAVE TO do now"...

however, the two lines

"All you can do now is watch the shel(ve/l)s
the game looks easy, thats why it sells"

does suggest a shell game...

i think he means both and is purposely blurring the line to artistically transition between two or three metaphors for being an exploited artist...

keep in mind that each of the first three sections of the song has this pattern of starting with references to the record company and transitioning into sea/water/liquid references.

on top of all the logical reasons for blurring the line... it also sounds like he does... emphasizing "shell" but adding a subtle "v" in there like "Roosevelt" said.

i also like the idea that it means bullet shells (a preview to the gun/war/cutthroat/exploited-warrior references later in the song?)

--Dave

ps. keep in mind that it might have been important for him to blur the line when writing a song that his producer would see every word of before mass producing it... Dreamworks probably wouldn't like it very much if he was more blatantly ripping on them.

[The REAL Tom Cruise]

Originally posted by Oh Well Okay
i wholly disagree. it sounds to me like he is subtly critiquing the pressure to sell records that was forced upon him by a major label deal. i take it as he detests the need to see one's albums "fly off the shelf." true, it looks easy, therefore many get stuck in this neverending cycle of commerical pressure.
YOU'RE A FUCKHEAD!!! LISTEN TO KEENGUY!!! HE'S RIGHT!!!

[The REAL Tom Cruise]

Originally posted by schruthensis


but lets not forget elliots knack for double, triple or even quadruple meanings (as in "between the bars" where I would argue that all of the following equations were deliberate: bar=place, bars=prison, bars=crib, bars=music)





DON'T YOU MEAN CRAZY OBSESSED FANS KNACK FOR DOUBLE, TRIPLE, OR EVEN QUADRUPLE (AND DOUBLE, TRIPLE AND QUADRUPLY WRONG) INTERPRETATIONS?

WHO ARE YOU, A.J. WEBERMAN?!?

[Fat Brian Wilson]

it boggles my mind that anyone could be convinced he sings anything other than 'shells'. It's an obvious reference to the classic shell game... as opposed to 'shelves' which would make it a dubious underhanded reference to the music industry, which neither fits the rest of the song nor sound like something elliott would've been writing lyrics about.

[elisabeth]

It's shells.
And Dokken!
Definitely.

[schruthensis]

Originally posted by The REAL Tom Cruise
FANS KNACK FOR DOUBLE, TRIPLE, OR EVEN QUADRUPLE (AND DOUBLE, TRIPLE AND QUADRUPLY WRONG) INTERPRETATIONS?

good point... I am sure there is some of that too... but seriously: this forum needs to consider at least at least the *possibility* of multiple meanings (as "the brew" suggests).. (OT: just look at "needle in the hay"... there is more than one way "needle" is used in that song. and "proud that I’m getting good marks" referring to both grades in school and to marks on your arm from heroin injection)

beaver, Crippled Silence, and threefromzero, thank you for thinking logically and investigating this scientifically.

Originally posted by The REAL Tom Cruise
WHO ARE YOU, A.J. WEBERMAN?!?

actually i *am* an anthropologist, but not an archeologist (i don't dig up human garbage).

btw: I don't appreciate the hostility (who writes in all-caps anyway?)

Originally posted by The REAL Tom Cruise
DON'T YOU MEAN CRAZY OBSESSED FANs


I’m hardly crazy or obsessed. I just heard this song for the first time today. And in fact I just discovered Elliott this past month or so. .. But, He *was* a fascinating guy, I have to admit. And as a side effect of learning his songs on guitar over the past couple of weeks, I have stumbled into investigating his lyrics, life, motivations and inspirations. He was an amazing guitarist, singer, and poet. And the length of this discussion is a testimony to the depth and complexity of his songwriting ability.

[honey moon]

Originally posted by cat
This is really stupid because it doesn't make sense, but the first few times I listened to the song, I thought it was shells in the bullet sense.. watch the empty shells coming back after firing.. it totally doesn't make sense now, but I kind of pictured a trench warfare dodging kind of thing..
it made sense in a sketchy way
*ponders*

me too

I took "all you can do now is watch the shells" to mean something like "I inadvertantly created this image for myself and now it's blowing up in my face"

Shelves obviously works too in view of the next lines.

"the game looks easy that's why it sells" for me means the way that an artist's emotions and problems become a consumable product

this fits well with "the method acting that pays my bills" line- ie he's an actor whose life has become indistinguishable from his role as "the depressed artist". It's an image that is simultaneously sustaining and destructive. It gives him a place in the music industry and a means to create and sell records at the same time as it is a self-fulfilling prophecy he can't escape.

"i get my check from the trash treasury because I took my own insides out"

[schruthensis]

Originally posted by honey moon

"the game looks easy that's why it sells" for me means the way that an artist's emotions and problems become a consumable product

this fits well with "the method acting that pays my bills" line- ie he's an actor whose life has become indistinguishable from his role

and "i get my check from the trash treasury because I took my own insides out"

i agree with you... i think the bullet shells / casualty of war (of the recording industry's commercialism and marketing) interpretation has been under represented in this thread.


"The judge is on vinyl
desicions are final
and nobody gets a reprieve "

"Ive seen the movie and I know what happens"

"Open your parachute and grab your gun
falling down like an omen
a setting sun
read the part where we turn out fine
its a hell of a role
If you can keep it alive
and I don’t care if I fuck up"

even if he wanted to get better and quit the drugs (which he eventually was trying to do)... he had already been type cast in this suicidal, insecure, addict, self-destructive role and couldn't get out perhaps? so was he martyring himself? is that what the song title is about? what exactly does the title & firstline "King's Crossing" mean? (Jesus' torture / martyrdom / resurrection perhaps? tourtuously spilling his guts for the record company's sins?) i don't know

[honey moon]

Originally posted by schruthensis


"Open your parachute and grab your gun
falling down like an omen
a setting sun
read the part where we turn out fine
its a hell of a role
If you can keep it alive
and I don’t care if I fuck up"

even if he wants to get better and quit the drugs... he has already been type cast in this suicidal, insecure, addict role and can't get out perhaps? so is he martyring himself? is that what the song title is about? what exactly does King's Crossing mean? (Jesus' torture / martyrdom / resurrection perhaps?) i don't know

That's an interesting idea! "Falling down like an omen" definitely fits really well with the idea of the self-fulfilling prophecy- not only of the place the music industry gave him as "the depressed singer songwriter", but also with his obsession with drug use in his early songs, always as a metaphor for addiction and dependence, but which in fact became a quite literal issue in his own life in later years... Particularly in view of the fact that "parachute" is slang for heroin and "gun" slang for needle as someone pointed out. That's a fantastic double meaning with both the slang and literal meanings of parachute having connotations of escape. Wow, I love this song more and more! I think it's some of his best imagery

[schruthensis]

Originally posted by Fat Brian Wilson
it boggles my mind that anyone could be convinced he sings anything other than 'shells'.
im not convinced, i am merely suggesting that he might be purposely blurring the line between the two words
Originally posted by Fat Brian Wilson
It's an obvious reference to the classic shell game...
i agree, but i think it is both... i am sure that Elliott was smart enough to see both interpretations...
Originally posted by Fat Brian Wilson
as opposed to 'shelves' which would make it a dubious underhanded reference to the music industry,

perhaps, but isn't he all about being obscure and leaving some ambiguity in? why put something in a song at all unless you are going to be clever or if it is hard to say directly
Originally posted by Fat Brian Wilson
which neither fits the rest of the song nor sound like something Elliott would've been writing lyrics about.
now here i think you are totally wrong. He and dreamworks were having some philosophical differences back when he wrote this song... i think they put him on "sabbatical" and he switched to indie shortly after this was recorded(10.14.99)

DreamWorks Records A&R man, Luke Wood, tells Billboard.com: (http://www.billboard.com/bb/daily/article_display.jsp?vnu_content_id=2008549)
"In a highly unusual move, Wood says DreamWorks had reached an agreement with Smith that allowed him to take a "sabbatical" from the label. The singer, Wood says, was looking for a more intimate way to reconnect with the fans who had followed him since his indie days, during which he issued albums for the Cavity Search and Kill Rock Stars labels.

It was sort of like, 'How do you continue to motivate and be a true partner to an artist who's gonna want to take turns and do different things, and reach his audience more directly without going through radio or MTV?'" Wood says. "I think it was really a sense of him being able to feel like he was in control of his own destiny. And he wanted to bring it down and do sort of less promotion, and focus just more on making a record and getting it out."

[The REAL Tom Cruise]

THE ONLY PEOPLE WHO SHOULD MAKE REFERENCES TO THINGS HITTING SHELVES ARE RAPPERS. (and tom cruise ALWAYS WRITES IN CAPS)

I AM ELIOT SMITHEY AND I'M HERE TO SAY
WHEN MY ALBUM DROPS IT HITS THE SHELVES TODAY

[fake concerns]

While I was listening to King's crossing today trying to hear whether it was "shells" or "shelves" (and I definitely think it's "shells" after listening through my trusty stereo headphones) and I had a bit of a revelation. In the beginning when loads of Elliotts are all singing along with the piano... Well, some of it seems to be a bit off-key. Perhaps he did this purposefully to show how crazy people in the music industry will sign people who can't sing so long as they know the person will sell records.

This is not to say elliott can't sing. Maybe he was just trying to make a point? In the beginning he talked in what seems to be a rapper's voice, though I can't be sure. Maybe those are tied in.

Sorry if I'm a little late with my revelation. I'm a bit slow. And no, I'm not high. :rolleyes:

[Fluke]

i'm pretty sure that its

all you can do now is watch the shells
the game looks easy that's why it sells

you know those games where there's 3 shells and underneath one of them is an object? then the dealer (i guess that's what he is) shuffles them around and you have to guess which shell the object is under. it looks so easy, that's why it sells. but you often end up losing.

[schruthensis]

Originally posted by MollyR

I had a bit of a revelation. In the beginning when loads of Elliotts are all singing along with the piano... Well, some of it seems to be a bit off-key. Perhaps he did this purposefully to show how crazy people in the music industry will sign people who can't sing so long as they know the person will sell records.


that is a really good point! I think the pre-lyrics part of the song might provide some huge clues to understanding the song. i am listening to it again and i hear: a rapper like voice saying "thats right, I am the wolfman" (a reference to Baker Knight??), "that's my *dream* man" (perhaps a reference to dreamworks?? probably a stretch), "the white man keepin me down" (or something like that), some woman with a terrible voice, and a bunch of crappy, minimalistic guitar playing / effects (distortion and whammy)...

Originally posted by MollyR

This is not to say elliott can't sing. Maybe he was just trying to make a point? In the beginning he talked in what seems to be a rapper's voice, though I can't be sure. Maybe those are tied in.


of course! i think that is the point, Elliott had a great voice and was a superb guitarist and yet dreamworks dropped him and kept all sorts of crappy musicians that sold even though they sucked ...

[schruthensis]

Originally posted by aedro
i'm pretty sure that its

all you can do now is watch the shells
the game looks easy that's why it sells

you know those games where there's 3 shells and underneath one of them is an object? then the dealer (i guess that's what he is) shuffles them around and you have to guess which shell the object is under. it looks so easy, that's why it sells. but you often end up losing.

hey aedro, check out the previous two pages of this thread.... that’s kind of exactly what we are debating about.. but yes, this hasn't gone unnoticed and is probably right (at least partially)

btw: assume for a second you are *trying* to rhyme shelves with sells.... you are going to have to drop or diminish the "v" sound because, yes, they don't rhyme, but singers/songwritters do this all the time: it's a delicate balance between meaning and art... he may in fact have tied in the shell-game/sea-shell/bullet-shell connections as a result of process of trying to rhyme sells with shelves... but originally meaning shelves which has more of a DIRECT connection to the over all song's meaning ????

[Fluke]

Originally posted by schruthensis
hey aedro, check out the previous two pages of this thread.... that’s kind of exactly what we are debating about.. but yes, this hasn't gone unnoticed and is probably right (at least partially)

oops. i have a bad habit of skipping to the end of a thread without reading the rest. :darn:

[bumbletort]

Originally posted by acrethrills
On the multiple meanings within Elliott's lyrics and titles front, i like those too - only today did i realise that LP6's title can be phonetically compressed to: From Abasement On The Hill, which might be considered apposite. Only took me a year and a bit to think of that. "The mind is always working..."
That is really, really nice. That would be a typical working of the Elliott Mind. Of course, he no doubt had the William's track "A Mansion on the Hill" somewhere in his thoughts, too.

You have made my day.

I'd like to see what else you come up with in a year or two. Should be worth the wait.

[Fat Brian Wilson]

i wouldn't deny that elliott had issues with the music industry... im still not sure he would have been one to reference his complaints about it on an album. *shrug* it's shells.

in related news, my powertab transcription of King's Crossing is now avaliable here:

http://www.powertabs.net/pta.php?page=song,19435

if anyone is interested in taking a look.

[bumbletort]

Originally posted by Fat Brian Wilson
i wouldn't deny that elliott had issues with the music industry... im still not sure he would have been one to reference his complaints about it on an album. *shrug* it's shells.
I agree. I think Elliott almost always aimed for as much transcendence as he could get in his work. That's why his songs will still mean something long after we're gone.

[The REAL Tom Cruise]

Originally posted by MollyR
While I was listening to King's crossing today trying to hear whether it was "shells" or "shelves" (and I definitely think it's "shells" after listening through my trusty stereo headphones) and I had a bit of a revelation. In the beginning when loads of Elliotts are all singing along with the piano... Well, some of it seems to be a bit off-key. Perhaps he did this purposefully to show how crazy people in the music industry will sign people who can't sing so long as they know the person will sell records.

This is not to say elliott can't sing. Maybe he was just trying to make a point? In the beginning he talked in what seems to be a rapper's voice, though I can't be sure. Maybe those are tied in.

Sorry if I'm a little late with my revelation. I'm a bit slow. And no, I'm not high. :rolleyes:

:ok:

[bumbletort]

Originally posted by The REAL Tom Cruise
:ok:

My God, Tom, you've done it again!

By the way, has anyone told you lately how awesome you are?

I know you don't hear that enough.

[The REAL Tom Cruise]

JUST ONCE MORE WOULDN'T HURT.

BUT SADLY, THE QUESTION IS DO YOU HEAR THAT OFTEN ENOUGH?

[bumbletort]

Originally posted by The REAL Tom Cruise
JUST ONCE MORE WOULDN'T HURT.

BUT SADLY, THE QUESTION IS DO YOU HEAR THAT OFTEN ENOUGH?
Tom, you are AWESOME!!

And no, sadly, all I ever get is 'thank you, Masked Man'.

Sniff.

[Quoc]

the cover version by the 88, the guy sings 'shelves'. Why is this interesting? well they got themselves (or should i say, themSHELVES *dies* ) an early copy because their cover was before the album release. could it be they were buddies of elliott (i'm sure someone on here knows the answer)? and could elliott have whispered the words to him? at the very least they got an early recording of this and that's interesting enough to ponder on...

[meepmeep]

Originally posted by Quoc
the cover version by the 88, the guy sings 'shelves'. Why is this interesting? well they got themselves (or should i say, themSHELVES *dies* ) an early copy because their cover was before the album release. could it be they were buddies of elliott (i'm sure someone on here knows the answer)? and could elliott have whispered the words to him? at the very least they got an early recording of this and that's interesting enough to ponder on...

they backed elliott up at at least one show on 'Can't Make A Sound'. someone that used to post here knows them (twottstoo)....maybe she can ask them.

[fake concerns]

Originally posted by The REAL Tom Cruise
:ok:

Was it something I said? ...;) I get so worked up over the weirdest things. Eh.

[schruthensis]

Originally posted by Fat Brian Wilson

i wouldn't deny that Elliott had issues with the music industry... im still not sure he would have been one to reference his complaints about it on an album. *shrug* it's shells.

you are totally missing the point! I agree that it is shells (partially), but consider for a moment that it might ALSO be shelves. ITS BOTH!

it seems painfully obviously to me that he is referencing his complaints about the music industry: just listen to the following lines:

"The judge is on vinyl"
how could this be any less obvious!! DreamWorks decides which songs/lyrics get mass produced on vinyl records (or CDs) ...dare I add?... which are sold on *shelves*

"Frustrated fireworks inside your head"
a reference to his actual writers block / period of inactivity (http://www.rollingstone.com/news/story/_/id/5935899) or the bureaucratic external blocks to his “took my insides out” sincere music (like this song which was written before (and perhaps overruled from appearing on) the figure 8 release)

"are gonna stand and deliver"
Probably a reference to the true story, double-entendre (D.E.) (http://www.digitaltermpapers.com/a7952.htm) filled movie (alternatively titled The Calculus of Finite Differences (http://movies2.nytimes.com/mem/movies/review.html?title1=&title2=STAND%20AND%20DELIVER%20%28MOVIE%29&reviewer=Janet%20Maslin&pdate=19880318&v_id=46436), itself a D.E.) about overcoming enormous class/background based obstacles

"talk instead"
a reference to his "quiet period (http://www.rollingstone.com/news/story/_/id/5935899)" phase (after composing figure 8 )
when he wasn’t writing songs or putting out albums? Instead of over coming odds (standing and delivering) and quitting his drug addictions, he is just talking the talk while still secretly abusing? … or perhaps this is a reference to his contractual obligations to market his previous albums (doing talk shows and interviews) instead of actually creating new “fireworks”

"the method acting that pays my bills"

method acting (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Method_acting) refers to drawing upon his own life and experiences to play this drug-addict musician part

"keeps the fat man feeding in Beverly Hills"

here is the real clue: although DreamWorks headquarters is located in Universal City and nearby Glendale, just north of LA, and DreamWorks funding corp is located in Encino just northwest, they *do* have several offices in Beverly Hills (http://hotjobs.yahoo.com/Company-Profiles/D/DreamWorks-SKG-Jobs_49799). And a google search for '"Beverly Hills" AND "DreamWorks"' (http://www.google.com/local?hl=en&lr=&safe=off&rls=DVXA%2CDVXA%3A2005-09%2CDVXA%3Aen&q=dreamworks+&near=beverly+hills&btnG=Search&sc=1) gives "DreamWorks funding corp as its number one link!!

"I've got a heavy metal mouth"
"that hurls obscenity"

even though his music is beautiful and he could have been "the next Dave Mathews" (http://www.buffalobeast.com/63/elliot.htm) as far as musical talent goes, he has very disturbing shock value lyrics (an "obscene", "heavy metal mouth"), which lumps him with another crowd..

"and I get my check from the trash treasury"
again, a reference to the DreamWorks funding corp

"because I took my own insides out"

because he is spilling his guts (exposing his very disturbing, troubled life) for us, he gets lumped in with people who are selling due to self-descructive shock value rather than for musical talent...

"Ive seen the movie and I know what happens
read the part where we turn out fine
its a hell of a role
If you can keep it alive
and I dont care if I fuck up"

the movie "stand and deliver" has a happy turn-around, against-all-odds ending.

but he doesn't know if he is going to or wants to play that role for his employers???

Originally posted by bumbletort
I agree. I think Elliott almost always aimed for as much transcendence as he could get in his work. That's why his songs will still mean something long after we're gone.

How can the song's meaning get any more transcendent ("Being above and independent of the material universe (http://www.answers.com/topic/transcendent) ") than this!! he is talking about deeper meaning ("fireworks") in his life and music (i.e. struggling with addiction, abuse, and heartbreak) than the version which has been "frustrated" into a shock value comodity by his employers for commercial reasons.

"the kings crossing was the main attraction"

They are selling his suffering and marketing his misery!!


we are talking about elliott comparing his plight to that of jesus's.... please enlighten me to another interpretation and/or meaning that has higher transcendence than that!

[schruthensis]

"the judge is on vinyl
decisions are final
and nobody gets a reprieve"

no matter how perfectly nuanced, poetic, and meaningful his songs are, the record company has final say as to what lyrics, lines, and songs are finally released to his fans... and he can't have a break either! he is under contractual obligation to produce produce produce!!!

[Dead Pilot]

Interesting. :)

[arnold_layne]

I always thought it was "all you can do now is wash my balls".

[schruthensis]

Originally posted by Fat Brian Wilson
i wouldn't deny that Elliott had issues with the music industry... im still not sure he would have been one to reference his complaints about it on an album. *shrug* it's shells.




and my god... here i am actually moving on away from "king's crossing" analysis and finding another song, "angeles", which has a very similar anti contractual-music-industry pro indie music message.



" someone's always coming around here trailing some new kill "


the media kissing up to Elliott (yet another victim of "looks easy" game of contractual selling out)

" says i seen your picture on a hundred dollar bill"

and associating his fame with money (a symbol of him (knowingly) selling out perhaps?)...

"and What's a game of chance to you"

no longer a struggling independent artist

"(to?) him is one of real skill"

up-and-coming artists think erroneously that it is just about skill???

"So glad to meet you Angeles"

Elliott signing on with the DreamWorks, BeverlyHills, Hollywood, contractually commercialized art world of Los Angeles



"Picking up the ticket shows there's money to be made"

obvious enough?

"Go on lose the gamble that's the history of the trade"


looks easy to a struggling artist a "scraping subject ruled by fear" because it the minimizes risk (lose the gamble) of going solo


"Did you add up all the cards left to play …. To zero"

this one kills me -- when you sell out, you sign over your life to them... no more freedom to write about anything you want


"Sign up with evil Angeles"

do i really need to say anymore?

"I could make you satisfied in everything you do
All your ‘secret wishes’ could right now be coming true
And Be forever with my poison arms
Around you"

little confused about this, but perhaps he is saying he could destroy himself for their gain . his suicide boosting sales but forever stigmatizing and poisoning them? I don't know........

[armada]

Originally posted by schruthensis

"Picking up the ticket shows there's money to be made"

obvious enough?

"Go on lose the gamble that's the history of the trade"

looks easy to a struggling artist a "scraping subject ruled by fear" because it the minimizes risk (lose the gamble) of going solo

"Did you add up all the cards left to play
To zero"

this one kills me -- when you sell out, you sign over your life to them... no more freedom to write about anything you want


i actually disagree with this interpretation of these lines, especially the last one. i believe that these are actually about gambling, and that elliott had some knowledge of the idea behind card counting. the most basic count used in card counting (called the high-low count) assigns a value of -1 to 10, J, Q, K & A, a value of +1 to 2, 3, 4, 5 & 6 and a value of 0 to 7, 8 & 9. thus, at the end of every deck (or shoe-- six decks) you will have a count of 0 (the -1's and the +1's cancel out). what one does when they count cards is exactly what elliott sings-- add up all the cards left to play, and if you have 0 you are playing at a disadvantage.

obviously he could be using probabilities and strategies in gambling as metaphors for something else, such as the music industry, but i don't really see how you get "when you sell out, you sign over your life to them... no more freedom to write about anything you want" from the words "did you add up all the cards left to play to zero."

just my two cents. :)

[armada]

and, i would just like to mention, i've always thought it was pretty cool that elliott probably knew something about card counting! :eek:

[schruthensis]

Originally posted by armada
what one does when they count cards is exactly what elliott sings-- add up all the cards left to play, and if you have 0 you are playing at a disadvantage.

obviously he could be using probabilities and strategies in gambling as metaphors for something else, such as the music industry,


wow that is really cool! thanks.. and yes, i would say the general argument still holds. him realizing (pointing out rather) that he is at a major legal / power disadvantage.

Originally posted by armada

but i don't really see how you get "when you sell out, you sign over your life to them... no more freedom to write about anything you want" from the words "did you add up all the cards left to play to zero."

and yes, perhaps i was over doing that one. but read my previous posts... i was tying it into them

"judge is on vinyl, decisions are final, and nobody gets a reprieve"

[bumbletort]

Originally posted by schruthensis

How can an a song's meaning get any more transcendent ("Being above and independent of the material universe (http://www.answers.com/topic/transcendent) ") than this!! he is talking about deeper meaning ("fireworks") in his life and music (i.e. struggling with addiction, abuse, and heartbreak) than the version which has been "frustrated" into a shock value comodity by his employers for commercial reasons.

"the kings crossing was the main attraction"

They are selling his suffering and marketing his misery!!


we are talking about elliot comparing his plight to that of jesus's.... please enlighten me to another interpretation and/or meaning that has higher transcendence than that! [/B]

Well, sir. I don’t know what Brian is going to cop to, but for myself I will simply say that it is conceivable that I was talking through my hat.

I did put ‘almost’ in my post as a hedge, but it still doesn’t entirely excuse my blundering over the reality that this is one of Elliott’s most topical songs. The simple fact is I haven’t settled into the lyrics to FABOTH yet and should watch my generalizing about them.

Unlike Tom Cruise, Bumbletort is fallible, as many here can support.

By way of atonement, I shall forthwith drop my “King’s Crossing” Bombshell, which I had been hoarding, and which I think you are just going to love.

There has been much debate about the meaning of the title of this song. I shall now drop The Bombshell for the first time (unless somebody else snuck it in somewhere) and leave the floor open to debate (I started down this yahoo search road, btw, because of the Frost poem mentioned below):


Where does the phrase “King’s X” or “King’s X’s” come from?

Ah, the difficult vocabulary of children’s games rears its ugly head again.
The expression king’s X is an exclamation used among children during fights and games to call a temporary truce or an exemption from being tagged. It is part of a large family of expressions, most presumably mutated by folk etymology; some other members are king(‘s) sax, king’s cruse, king’s speech, king’s sets, and king’s excuse.
A common explanation is that this last form, king’s excuse, is the base, and that king’s X is a shortening of it. While this may be true, there is an alternate explanation. In England, a similar term is crosses (without the king’s, though king’s itself has been used in England), and king’s cruses is found in England and America. According to the Dictionary of American Regional English, which has an especially full treatment of this term and its variants, “it seems more likely that [king’s excuse], as well as (s)cruse(s) and crosses, refers to the act of crossing the fingers, often an essential part of claiming a truce or time out.”
In America, the earliest form of the expression is king’s cruse, found in a 1856 book that was referring to the 1770s. Robert Frost used the term in his poem U.S. 1946 King’s X: “Having invented a new Holocaust,/And been the first with it to win a war,/How they make haste to cry with fingers crossed,/King’s X—no fairs to use it anymore!” Geographically, according to DARE, the expression is most common west of the Mississippi River, in the Gulf states, and in the Ohio Valley.


Note the last sentence--pretty damn close to Elliott's backyard.

Mr. Schruthensis, your attendance at my next lyrics thread is mandatory.

I just love a lyric fanatic.

[mike35]

Its shells.The V sound isnt part of the word its some wierd thing in the background.

mike

[meepmeep]

you guys are funny

this song (king's crossing) was written when elliott was in college.

[kevinlong206]

i thought it was shells like bullets.. tying in to the "open your parachute and grab your gun" part ... or maybe watch the shells like in russian roulette..

[bumbletort]

Originally posted by meepmeep
you guys are funny

this song (king's crossing) was written when elliott was in college.
And I heard he wrote it in grade school.

The teachers were quite puzzled by the child Elliott.

[schruthensis]

Originally posted by bumbletort
Well, sir. I don’t know what Brian is going to cop to, but for myself I will simply say that it is conceivable that I was talking through my hat.
I did put ‘almost’ in my post as a hedge, but it still doesn’t entirely excuse my blundering over the reality that this is one of Elliott’s most topical songs.

thanks for that :)
Originally posted by bumbletort
By way of atonement, I shall forthwith drop my “King’s Crossing” Bombshell, which I had been hoarding, and which I think you are just going to love.
There has been much debate about the meaning of the title of this song. I shall now drop The Bombshell for the first time (unless somebody else snuck it in somewhere) and leave the floor open to debate (I started down this yahoo search road, btw, because of the Frost poem mentioned below):
Where does the phrase “King’s X” or “King’s X’s” come from?
The expression king’s X is an exclamation used among children during fights and games to call a temporary truce or an exemption from being tagged. "
wow!! that is really neat, you were right: I love it!... fitting perfectly with a time out... i have seen the lyrics posted elsewhere as "the big problem" instead of the "king's crossing".. perhaps Elliott changed the lyrics slightly when people were "demonizing [his] inactivity (http://www.rollingstone.com/news/story/_/id/5935899) "... very fitting indeed
Originally posted by bumbletort
“it seems more likely that [king’s excuse], as well as (s)cruse(s) and crosses, refers to the act of crossing the fingers, often an essential part of claiming a truce or time out.”
Christ!! my interpretation jumped right over your etymological research right back to Christ himself! It probably is a crucifixion/martyring reference then eh?
Originally posted by bumbletort

Frost's 1946 King’s X:
“Having invented a new Holocaust,
And been the first with it to win a war,
How they make haste to cry with fingers crossed,
King’s X—no fairs to use it anymore!”

cool! thanks for that
Originally posted by bumbletort
Mr. Schruthensis, your attendance at my next lyrics thread is mandatory.
I just love a lyric fanatic.


Anytime... thanks sharing your WMD with us. .... Perhaps we should rename ourselves fat man and little boy?


OT: speaking of etimology fans: did you know the word "fan" comes from "fanatic" (http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?search=fan)

[schruthensis]

Originally posted by meepmeep
you guys are funny

this song (king's crossing) was written when elliott was in college.

really? care to share your source? I have to admit that my chronology is a little fuzzy at best (like i said before, i just discovered Elliott a month ago and just discovered this song yesterday). My '99 source (http://www.lyrics-now.com/E/Elliott-Smith-lyrics/unknown/10.14.99-1.shtml) was the song's alternative title 10.14.99 (a recording date perhaps?) which would place it well out of college years... looks like he graduated from college in 1991 from "Hampshire College" with a degree in "political philosophy" (http://www.anti.com/artist.php?id=20) (a fitting major for my interpretation wouldn't you say?)...

but, like i say above, the lyrics and title appear to have changed over the years?... (ie "the big problem" instead of "the kings crossing")... rather than it being about Elliott’s sabbatical from his DreamWorks contract, it could have initially been inspired by a general problem that he saw with the music industry long before he was so entrenched personally (the drug references being a prediction perhaps? i don't know.....) either way, i don't think it changes my interpretation of the meaning of the song: how Hollywood and the recording industry capitalize on the very real self destructive "method (non-)acting" of it's contractual victims... and, perhaps, in Elliott's case (?), actually even pushing them further over the edge

speaking of fitting my interpretation: i found the following quote from a bbc site (http://www.bbc.co.uk/music/rockandalt/reviews/elliottsmith_basement.shtml) :
"The powerful "Kings Crossing" is an expose of the music industry with Smith singing of the frustrated fireworks inside his head."

and the "frustrated fireworks" opening lines from "fond farewell to a friend":
"the litebrite's now black and white
cause you took apart a picture that wasn't right"

[ruiner]

I don't know, I'm listening to the song and it sounds like he's saying 'shelves' and then it seems like he's saying 'shells', so I don't know, all I know is that 'shelves' makes a little more sense to me.

All you can do now is watch the shelves
The game looks easy that's why it sells

It's not an exact rhyme, but it's approximate.

(Sorry if I'm a little late here.)

[Fluke]

Originally posted by bumbletort
And I heard he wrote it in grade school.

The teachers were quite puzzled by the child Elliott.

he wrote this while in school?! wow. i have a lot of catching up to do. :\

but also this makes me think that its nothing to do with "shelves" and record comparies then, beause, if he wrote this in school, he'd have not experienced the stuff that some people claim he's singing about... unless he could see through time! :eek:

on a separate note, i think that Elliott would laugh if he could see how much we were taking his lyrics apart and analysing them. :lol: he'd probably tell us that he didn't really intend for them to mean as much as we are reading into them.

"they took your life apart and called your faliures art"

... woah, maybe he could see into the future.

[bumbletort]

Originally posted by schruthensis
and the "frustrated fireworks" opening lines from "fond farewell to a friend":
"the litebrite's now black and white
cause you took apart a picture that wasn't right" [/B]

Those lines have bothered me for some time. They’re proabably right, but I keep playing with them. I wish I could find my notes right now, but everything’s up in the air presently. I think of things like:

The light’s bright—now black and white
The light’s bright—not black and white

Both of the above wrong, btw, but you see what I mean. Probably a fool’s errand, but then that’s me. I keep playing with it because it is a constant Elliott conceit, photos, light silhouettes, etc., and there is always this element of the logical when he does that. Will look for notes. Really, I am disgusted by the state of the lyric clarity for FABOTH. If only a lyric sheet had been provided, but even then Elliott sometimes plays tricks, methinks.

Originally posted by schruthensis
Anytime... thanks sharing your WMD with us. .... Perhaps we should rename ourselves fat man and little boy?


OT: speaking of etimology fans: did you know the word "fan" comes from "fanatic" (http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?search=fan) [/B]

Haha. Thanks!

And welcome aboard.

[meepmeep]

Originally posted by schruthensis
really? care to share your source? I have to admit that my chronology is a little fuzzy at best (like i said before, i just discovered Elliot a month ago and just discovered this song yesterday).

like woodward and bernstein, i can't point to a source. ?and deep throat is? anyway i'll just say that i think like condor ave. king's crossing probably went through a number of revisions through the years to reach its final version.

[schruthensis]

Originally posted by the FLUKE
he wrote this while in school?! wow. i have a lot of catching up to do. :\


yea, tell me about it... we *all* do... i think he is alluding to that in several of his songs including the one you quote below.. Everybody else is way late in understanding his lyrics and life...a visionary before his time?

Originally posted by the FLUKE

but also this makes me think that its nothing to do with "shelves" and record companies then, because, if he wrote this in school, he'd have not experienced the stuff that some people claim he's singing about... unless he could see through time! :eek:


like i said above, (assuming this claim is partially true: that he *originally* wrote it in college) he may have modified the lyrics (as meepmeep, or should i say deepthroat, just posted) to fit his current situation ... but was inspired by seeing this happen to others? He saw all of this happening in the music industry long before he was in the thick of it... do i dare be so conspiratorial to suggest that he purposefully got involved to take "them" out with a (literal) suicide mission? (again, i know next to nothing about the guy's life, but his lyrics seems to suggest some of these crazy "poison arms around [los] Angeles", compositionally "prepared for death" suicide mission ideas.) am i completely insane or does some of this make sense?

Originally posted by the FLUKE

on a separate note, i think that Elliott would laugh if he could see how much we were taking his lyrics apart and analyzing them. :lol: he'd probably tell us that he didn't really intend for them to mean as much as we are reading into them.


Probably... as i said to "the real [annoying] tom cruise", there is definitely some of that going on. and i'll admit when i am wrong or when a better more coherent interpretation comes along.. I agree that there is danger on both sides... (in both under and over interpretation)... I want to get it right because this is his legacy, his lasting message from the grave, his larger than his life “puzzle pieces” for us to resolve and understand... He was a brilliant, talented musician who gave up his life to send a message.

“nobody broke your heart
you broke your own because you can't finish what you start.”

(do i really need to spell out where i am going with this quote from "Alameda"?? could it be that he killed himself (breaking his own heart) because he (and most artists) couldn't possibly fullfill his (their) rigged "shell game" contracts and still stay pure, sane, and clean? the "fat man in beverly hills" collecting the lion's share of the fruits of his mostly independent labor?)

keep the rebuttals coming!

Originally posted by the FLUKE

"they took your life apart and called your failures art"

wow! I am just listening to that song ("tomorrow tomorrow") for the first time right now.... (what a virtuoso guitarist!) and reading the lyrics ... i couldn't ask for a more supportive attempt at rebuttal! thanks :)


btw: what does "straight to over" mean anyway? straight to overdose perhaps? that would sure fit....
Originally posted by the FLUKE

... whoa, maybe he could see into the future.

or possibly... more like... he saw the pattern and deliberately became a part of it. a career that went from 1,2 .. 3,4


"I tried to create the future. But instead it created me. And I was trapped by it" -- Paul Atreides in Frank Herbert's Dune

[kyanite]

lol

schruthensis knows quite alot about elliott but can't spell his name lol

sorry, its just kinda funny

you write so much but you cant spell the guys name, though even Danny Elfman couldn't either

[schruthensis]

Originally posted by kyanite

you write so much but you cant spell the guys name, though even Danny Elfman couldn't either

oops, sorry, spelling was never my strong point :\

ive gone through my posts and corrected everything (i think)

thanks for pointing that out!



just listening to Waltz #2 (for the first time) now:

"I'm here today and expected to stay on and on and on
I'm tired
I'm tired
Looking out on the substitute scene
Still going strong
XO, Mom
It's ok, it's alright, nothing's wrong
Tell Mr. Man with impossible plans to just leave me alone
In the place where I make no mistakes
In the place where I have what it takes"

and, you guessed it, i think it is about the impossible contractual obligations artists are duped into signing onto in the "substitue scene" entertainment world of L.A. ..... and hints at a carefully orchestrated suicide .....

[schruthensis]

Originally posted by schruthensis

Waltz #2 ....i think it is about the impossible contractual obligations artists are duped into signing onto in the "substitute scene" entertainment world of L.A. ..... and hints at a carefully orchestrated suicide .....

Christ! is anybody else seeing this stuff? am I going crazy?


he even wrote a song about the city!

this is from "L.A." on "Figure 8"

"The generals are winning a war
Seemed suicidal before
You came alone, now
I’ll protect you, long as you stay"

more entertainment warrior / risk minimizing / contractual references


"Last night I was about to throw it all away

If patience started a band,
I’d be her biggest fan"

again, references to an orchestrated / postponed suicide

"Look at me, I’m talking to you
I don’t want the lead in your play

The star’s just a part of the scene
The gentle man in green
Paying off, out on the street
I can’t go home, it’s not on my way"

He doesn't want to sell out to the LA / Beverly Hills / DreamWorks / Hollywood capitalize-on-genuine-artistic-expression-at-any-cost system... but he has to say and finish the job of destroying it.... by infiltrating its heart (DreamWorks: a company that exploits both actors and musicians) and sneaking songs like these that are filled with these "anti-" messages and then killing him self in protest of the unfair contracts that plague this industry and the power differentials that plauge capitalism in general.

is anybody else seeing this!!!!

[armada]

Originally posted by schruthensis
is anybody else seeing this!!!!

nope, sorry. :ok:

[Chemical Soup]

If it sounds like shells, It is shells
If it sounds like shelves, It is shelves
If it feels like silk, It is silk
If it looks like grass, It is grass
If it smells like shit, It is shit

If it is Genius then It is Genius and it is Genius

That is the beauty of Elliotts music, It means what it means to us, there is no right or wrong, I think he was well aware of the multiple meanings his songs may have.
Oh and
If I look fat, I'm just big boned.

[ParentheticalThought]

QUOTE]Originally posted by schruthensis

He was a brilliant, talented musician who gave up his life to send a message.
[/i] [/QUOTE]


Uh, now you have me worried. The last person who posted something like this here did so while waiting for the suicide drugs to kick in (not enough of them to be effective, fortunately). You have some great ideas but don't forget that in addition to being brilliant and loving his metaphores, Elliott was a troubled guy who wrote through his troubles over a 20-year period, and you'll see a lot just that in his songs as well.

[schruthensis]

Originally posted by ParentheticalThought
Originally posted by schruthensis

He was a brilliant, talented musician who gave up his life to send a message.


Uh, now you have me worried. The last person who posted something like this here did so while waiting for the suicide drugs to kick in (not enough of them to be effective, fortunately). You have some great ideas but don't forget that in addition to being brilliant and loving his metaphors, Elliott was a troubled guy who wrote through his troubles over a 20-year period, and you'll see a lot of just that in his songs as well.
thank you but you really have nothing to worry about with me... I although i am strangely drawn to Elliott, it is (was) because of his guitar skills, i normally prefer much happier music... but this stuff really struck me because it was both happy (musically) and sad (lyrically) simultaneously. The background story of his suicide reeled me in even further because my friend killed himself 10 years ago and I have always wondered exactly why he did it. my friend was a humble, sensitive, talented, intelligent and methodical perfectionist in his prime years, much like Elliott... (we even used to do the same kind of self-deprecating "prat falls (http://www.blamonet.com/vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=53171&perpage=35&pagenumber=2)" that Elliot used to do) .... some of the rose parade type lyrics really speak to me personally... and, sure, I've gone through some shit just like everyone else but nothing ever (directly) related to abuse or drugs ... but I would never do what my friend's suicide did to me and my friends and his family and our high school...

Thanks for the concern! But I assure you I am loving life these days!! :)


----------------------------------------------
"His sense of humor was so hilarious, and never at anyone's expense. He was always making me laugh" - (hearsay quote from) (http://www.blamonet.com/vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=53171&perpage=35&pagenumber=2) Elliott's sister

[ParentheticalThought]

Well, I'm not sure your formerly-missing concluding paragraph makes me feel any better (and "Is anybody else seeing this!!!!" is generally a red flag around here too), but glad to hear that you're OK. Welcome to the board.

[lomusicve]

it was a long while ago that i sent charlie the correction "shells" instead of "shelves" after reading the lyrics along with the live version. sadly, i was credited as gred. my only claim to fame on the sweet addy website and my name was spelled wrong. :-(

the story of my life

[bumbletort]

Originally posted by lomusicve
it was a long while ago that i sent charlie the correction "shells" instead of "shelves" after reading the lyrics along with the live version. sadly, i was credited as gred. my only claim to fame on the sweet addy website and my name was spelled wrong. :-(

the story of my life
Well, there is something to be said for being first.

Not much, just...something.

Maybe like: 'First, you say? First wha?'

[Fluke]

Originally posted by schruthensis
or possibly... more like... he saw the pattern and deliberately became a part of it. a career that went from 1,2 .. 3,4

yeah, this is also another (more likely) scenario. a sort of reverse method acting.


Originally posted by schruthensis

just listening to Waltz #2 (for the first time) now:

"I'm here today and expected to stay on and on and on
I'm tired
I'm tired
Looking out on the substitute scene
Still going strong
XO, Mom
It's ok, it's alright, nothing's wrong
Tell Mr. Man with impossible plans to just leave me alone
In the place where I make no mistakes
In the place where I have what it takes"

i 'm pretty sure that Waltz #2 (xo) is about his relationship with his mum and him coming to terms with the whole step-dad thing. at least this is what i gather from a previous discussion here...

"Tell Mr. Man with imposible plans to just leave me alone"

i think that the Mr. Man with impossible plans is his step dad.


Originally posted by schruthensis
“nobody broke your heart
you broke your own because you can't finish what you start.”

(do i really need to spell out where i am going with this quote from "Alameda"?? could it be that he killed himself (breaking his own heart) because he (and most artists) couldn't possibly fullfill his (their) rigged "shell game" contracts and still stay pure, sane, and clean? the "fat man in beverly hills" collecting the lion's share of the fruits of his mostly independent labor?)

one of the hardest things about Elliott's lyrics is to be able to tell when he's talking about himself ("I"), when he's taking on the persona of someone else (also "I"), when he's talking about someone else ("you") and when he is just refering to himself in the second person (also "you"). if you think about it this way it can get really confusing... :confused:


Originally posted by schruthensis
I agree that there is danger on both sides... (in both under and over interpretation)

you're right there. it's just that i recall reading numerous interviews where Elliott admits that some of the lyrics in his songs don't really mean anything and sometimes he doesn't even know what they mean... i wish i could find that article.

[schruthensis]

Originally posted by the FLUKE
i 'm pretty sure that Waltz #2 (xo) is about his relationship with his mum and him coming to terms with the whole step-dad thing. at least this is what i gather from a previous discussion here...

i agree... and saw this initially as well... that the first and very last part of the song is about just that... and perhaps a little more....

Originally posted by the FLUKE

"Tell Mr. Man with impossible plans to just leave me alone"

i think that the Mr. Man with impossible plans is his step dad.


I'm not so sure here.. I'll agree that Mr. Man could still very well be his mom's husband (I mean: It would make sense that he is telling her to talk to the third person in the song ... and rather impossible for her to tell "The Man" to leave him alone.), but I am still wondering what the "impossible plans" are... perhaps they are plans of reconciliation? ... i don't know enough about his life to rule out this possibility... but judging by the numerous lyrical clues which suggest a more overarching dissatisfaction with L.A. artistic capitalization I read it as "The Man" (the system) and "impossible plans" as contractual obligation...

Just read the previous 7 lines:

"I'm here today and expected to stay on and on and on
I'm tired
I'm tired
Looking out on the substitute scene
Still going strong
XO, Mom
It's ok, it's alright, nothing's wrong"

Is it safe to assume that this is LA? I think "substitute scene" is a major, Hollywood (where everything is so fake that "No one'll know where you are") referencing, clue. (not to mention the pick slide (http://www.supersonic.net/guitar/lessons/lesson-24.htm) frequency sweeps in the background at the end of the song which sound like cars "still going strong" driving by on the hollywood freeway near his LA home (http://maps.google.com/maps?q=echo+lake+and+bellevue+los+angeles) , or at "speed trials" perhaps. either way representing mindless, "running [in] place", good-little-capitalist, look-busy-Jesus-is-coming blissful ignorance) he is telling his mom that everything is fine in L.A. ...

"Tell Mr. Man with impossible plans to just leave me alone"

...except! that "The Man" is harassing him to produce, produce, produce, sell, sell, sell.

"In the place where I make no mistakes"

again, he is being very methodical about all of this, going to L.A. and taking a part in the "method acting"...but none of it, not even wasting his talent on "depressing" or seemingly random lyrics, is a mistake. its all deliberate.

"In the place where I have what it takes"

and i suppose these lines also serve as a prelude to the not-a-mistake suicide... meaning: he didn't kill himself because he didn't "have what it takes" like some people might do when they are told "You're no good"... he killed himself in "the spring of his career" (http://www.the-index.org/cgi-bin/story.pl?1013basement) ... purposefully protesting cut-throat competition... "disconnecting from the missing link" and our survival of the fittest ancestry...

...ultimately (from speed trials)
"Singing sweet high notes that echo back To destroy their master"
("their master" being both Dreamworks/Hollywood and Elliott himself??)


...and here is the real kicker: what if "Mr. Man" represents BOTH (I'm having deja vu suddenly) his step-dad and "The Man".... just think about it... he hates them both for the same reasons... for unscrupulous capitalization on an enormous power differential... the "fat man feeding" on helpless young independent just-"scraping"-by musicians and actors ("kills") "in Beverly Hills".... who preys on the disenchanted, suicidal "gonna throw it all away", "sure as your fate and hard as your luck" kids "with pinpoint eyes full of smoldering anger" who don't have any choice but to "Get into the back of a car for candy from some stranger"... is the very same (in Elliott's mind) as the abusive step-dads who beat the shit out of helpless little Elliotts: kids with "wet hot red swollen cheeks" and "head's full of flames"

the "dead china doll" mom who follows "the Man" around town is a metaphor for the artists and musicians duped by the industry and (more generally) all of us who blindly take part in capitalism.. but he loves us anyway..... very "forgive them for they know not what they do" died-for-us jesus-like.... (man this is starting to sound like that thread that ParentheticalThought was referring to... sorry)

i am reading way too much into this? I think it might be subtle at worst, but definitely present at some level....

:possiblygettingrediculouslyofforiginaltopic:

[schruthensis]

Originally posted by the FLUKE
“nobody broke your heart
you broke your own because you can't finish what you start.”
one of the hardest things about Elliott's lyrics is to be able to tell

1) when he's talking about himself ("I"),
2) when he's taking on the persona of someone else (also "I"),
3) when he's talking about someone else ("you") and
4) when he is just referring to himself in the second person (also "you").

if you think about it this way it can get really confusing... :confused:



i think it's very ingenious, but, yes, it does get confusing for sure... I’ve seen arguments that suggest he is doing a 2/4 combo taking on the persona of a bottle/alcohol while talking to himself as "you" in Between the Bars... i think in Alameda it could be a 3 but perhaps a 4 as well?... not that he wrote it this way because he knew he was going to literally break his heart, rather, perhaps he chose this lyric to reenact for his suicide to point out that he "couldn't [possibly] finish [the musical career and contract] he started" and still be pure.

[meepmeep]

Does anybody here know who killed J.F.K. ?

:ok:

[bumbletort]

Originally posted by meepmeep
Does anybody here know who killed J.F.K. ?

:ok:
Marilyn Monroe.

Now two of us know the truth.

[schruthensis]

Originally posted by bumbletort
Marilyn Monroe.

Now two of us know the truth.

come on guys, i am serious...


consider that Elliott might have felt as powerless against "The Man" as he did against his abusive step-dad as a child.

[meepmeep]

Originally posted by schruthensis
come on guys, i am serious...


consider that Elliott might have felt as powerless against "The Man" as he did against his abusive step-dad as a child.

i know you're serious, but joking is fun too...
take it w/ a grain of salt, man.

[schruthensis]

Originally posted by meepmeep
i know you're serious, but joking is fun too...
take it w/ a grain of salt, man.

*swallows*

salt taken! thank you much better...


:snail:

i kill me :lol:

[Fluke]

Originally posted by schruthensis
Just read the previous 7 lines:

"I'm here today and expected to stay on and on and on
I'm tired
I'm tired
Looking out on the substitute scene
Still going strong
XO, Mom
It's ok, it's alright, nothing's wrong"

Is it safe to assume that this is LA? I think "substitute scene" is a major, Hollywood (where everything is so fake that "No one'll know where you are") referencing, clue. (not to mention the pick slide (http://www.supersonic.net/guitar/lessons/lesson-24.htm) frequency sweeps in the background at the end of the song which sound like cars "still going strong" driving by on the freeway or at "speed trials" perhaps. either way representing mindless, "running [in] place", good-little-capitalist, look-busy-Jesus-is-coming blissful ignorance) he is telling his mom that everything is fine in L.A. ...

"Tell Mr. Man with impossible plans to just leave me alone"

...except! that "The Man" is harassing him to produce, produce, produce, sell, sell, sell.

i see where you're going with this but i'm still inclined to think that he did actually write songs that weren't about his career and his distaste for the music industry.

i always presumed that the "substitute scene" was the substitute parent scene (ie. step dads/step mums).

Originally posted by schruthensis
"In the place where I have what it takes"

and i suppose these lines also serve as a prelude to the not-a-mistake suicide... meaning: he didn't kill himself because he didn't "have what it takes" like some people might do when they are told "You're no good"... he killed himself in "the spring of his career" (http://www.the-index.org/cgi-bin/story.pl?1013basement) ... purposefully protesting cut-throat competition... "disconnecting from the missing link" and our survival of the fittest ancestry...

another thing that you have to concider is that Elliott probably wasn't planning suicide his whole career so these lyrics probably don't refer to him planning suicide somewhere in the future. he could have been talking about anything. for example, "the place where i have what it takes" could be the music scene becuase he enjoys playing music and knows others enjoy his music... i mean, i'm pretty sure that's not what he's talking about there but i'm just showing that you can make it mean anything.

What you don't understand you can make mean anything... - Chuck Palahniuk

Originally posted by schruthensis
i think in Alameda it could be a 3 but perhaps a 4 as well?... not that he wrote it this way because he knew he was going to literally break his heart, rather, perhaps he chose this lyric to reenact for his suicide to point out that he "couldn't [possibly] finish [the musical career and contract] he started" and still be pure.

once again, you've got to concider the possibility that this was simply a song about a friend (or himself) that broke their own heart and kept everyone at arms length because they didn't feel like they could committ to a relationship.

hindsight is a wonderful thing. the fact that Elliott has tragically died means that you could link any number of his lyrics to his suicide, but thats only with the benefit of hindsight. Elliott wasn't this utterly depressed and tourtured soul that the media made him out to be and he was capable of writing songs that didn't document his downfall.

What you don't understand you can make mean anything... - Chuck Palahniuk

:)

[schruthensis]

accidentally found this interview (along side the Elliott Guitar lesson audio clip (http://img3.musiciansfriend.com/dbase/graphics/musician.com/legacy/resources2/composing/media/f3/elliott_smith.ram) ) when i was looking through the (sticky) media thread (http://www.blamonet.com/vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=67723&perpage=35&pagenumber=1)

Elliott Smith: Straight from the Heart
by Jon Wiederhorn (http://www.musiciansfriend.com/srs7/g=home/s=articles/content/doc_id=92691?page=3)

Musician.com: "How do you avoid getting screwed as a musician when people realize that you have something to offer but you don't have the clout to lay down the ground rules? "

Smith: "It's tough because it's hard to control your excitement. Initially with my band Heatmiser, I was in a situation where we got kind of tangled up in a contract that wasn't really in our interests. I'm afraid to even really talk about it because I don't want to get in trouble. But when you first start out, every step along the way you think, "Well, if this just happened I'd die a happy man. If I could just make a record, that would be great. How could I ever be upset about anything else ever again?" And then when somebody comes along that wants to give you a contract, and you don't have any real power to dictate your own terms, you wind up signing a very long contract that's gonna wind up with everybody else making money and not you. That's a tough one because your only power is to not sign it, and by doing that you feel like you're shooting yourself in the foot. Some people have waited and it's worked out well for them. But most people, it seems, sign the first thing that comes along. "


and to back up some previous clams in this thread:

some Lyric Excerpts from the second side of his Pretty (Ugly Before) single.. a ("one-album hiatus from his contract with DreamWorks" (http://www.laweekly.com/ink/04/47/music-bemis.php)) the song titled:
"A Distorted Reality Is Now A Necessity To Be Free" :

which, to me, means: to free the censored artists in Los Angeles / Hollywood from their exploitive restrictive contracts

"But no big brother is gonna bring me down now "

no one can censor or edit Elliott's lyrics and prevent him from expressing his views on this sabbatical indie release ("big brother" an obvious reference to the book 1984 and censorship by "the Man") (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Brother_(1984))

"Sunrise on a choppy crusade Waving back at you not me"

this is just the beginning of Elliott's martyrdom... its the listener's job to look back at his choppy lyrics and find the message?

keep in mind that one of Elliott's main influences:'Kierkegaard considered Either/Or to have "a plan from the first word to the last".' (http://sorenkierkegaard.org/kw3.htm)

"My contemporaries cannot grasp the design of my writing. [...] each essay in Either/Or is only part of a whole, and then the whole of Either/Or a part of a whole: that, after all, think my bourgeois contemporaries, is enough to drive one daft " - Kierkegaard

for example: "they don't read page to page or speak easy
now they're gonna go say the words
in the wrong order again" - from punch and judy


"And now big brother is gonna bring me back down"

but now Elliott has to go back to his DreamWorks contract to continue to be censored

crazy and powerful stuff....

although i have never been religious... I am beginning to see why some might think that Elliott was "an incarnation of Jesus Christ." (http://www.blamonet.com/vb/showthread.php?threadid=67575)

[a]

to the last post :eek: wow!!!

to the one before about elliott (not) planning his suicide...

i totally agree that hindsight is a wonderful thing and it is easy to re-assess his lyrics in such a way that it gives them meaning.

however, (and i'm taking the stance that it WAS suicide for the point of this thread) - is it not possible that he might have had this in mind?

i'm not suggesting for a moment that when he wrote "nobody broke your heart..." he was thinking "in October 2003 I'll do this..." Personally, any lyrics about Broken Hearts are, for me, too ambiguous to be significant.

But it is probably worth thinking about that he must have thought about what he would do - and therefore, it gives a little creedence to those claims that the "broken heart" references are self-referential.

However, I honestly think, as someone who struggled with his depression for a long time (I'm taking this from magazines, things I've heard and his general demeanor at times, but please correct me if I'm wrong) it could be fair to say that suicide was something that may have been on his mind for a long time, therefore I see no problem in linking earlier lyrics to his passing - Last Call, Division Day, I Didn't Understand, Bottle Up and Explode etc...

(these references may have been in jest/toying with the idea metaphorically etc. - not to compare myself to him, but I write songs and I toy with these ideas in song all the time as they are interesting angles. However, because of the way he died, I think whatever earlier references he may have made are now more valid for assessment.)

I stand by my original point that any of his albums could have been his last and there would be plenty for people to "interpret"



And can I just add, I really hope none of his family are reading this. And if you are, I can't imagine how painful this must be and my thoughts and my prayers go out to you:heart:

[a]

btw schruthensis

i'm very impressed with your research, however, having reread some of your posts, your Elliott quotes are actually quite wrong (particularly angeles)

If you are writing them as you hear them (which is fair enough) it'd be worth having a look in the music section of this site - as far as I know they are all correct.

That's not a rebuttal - just a tip for someone who already seems like they have way more intelligence than I could ever hope to (but falling on slight mistakes;))

[schruthensis]

Originally posted by a

it could be fair to say that suicide was something that may have been on his mind for a long time, therefore I see no problem in linking earlier lyrics to his passing - Last Call, Division Day, I Didn't Understand, Bottle Up and Explode etc...


I have yet to look at / listen to these... soon enough though... (Unfortunately, I do, contrary to how it might sound, have a day job)

Originally posted by a

And can I just add, I really hope none of his family are reading this. And if you are, I can't imagine how painful this must be and my thoughts and my prayers go out to you:heart:
I second that... My deepest apologies go out to those who are still tender from this recent tragic event. Sorry if I am being a little insensitive with my analyses: my intellectual side can get a little carried away sometimes


Originally posted by a
having reread some of your posts, your Elliott quotes are actually quite wrong (particularly angeles) [...] it'd be worth having a look in the music section of this site - as far as I know they are all correct.

Thanks for the tip! I'll take a look and make the necessary corrections.... and if anybody else notices any errors in what I am saying please let me know via a 'pm' and I'll correct or delete as necessary. (the more specific the better)

[schruthensis]

Originally posted by a
i'm not suggesting for a moment that when he wrote "nobody broke your heart..." he was thinking "in October 2003 I'll do this..." Personally, any lyrics about Broken Hearts are, for me, too ambiguous to be significant.

But it is probably worth thinking about that he must have thought about what he would do - and therefore, it gives a little credence to those claims that the "broken heart" references are self-referential.


i couldn't help but take another quick look at this song that i scandalously suggested predicts his suicide method and justification for martyrdom

... i am even more convinced now ...

First off, just look at the title, Alameda (obviously a street from the context of the song "sidewalk" that somebody is "walking down")... and according to maps.google.com, its a very central north/south street that starts in an industrial area in south L.A. runs north through gang-ridden compton and south-central and ends at near the Union Station and the L.A prison (keep in mind that I have only been in L.A. once and am going off of maps.google.com mostly, please correct me if i am wrong)

"you walk down alameda shuffling your deck of trick cards over everyone like some precious only son face down, bow to the champion"

i would suggest that "you" here is the "gentleman [underneath the [speed trial] horse]" [who is] "in the lane [(alameda)] spinning his hat on a cane stepping out, out for a change" who is "throwing out candy that looks like money [(paying off out on the street)] to people passing by that all seem to be going the other way", contracts that they "couldn’t finish". is "Bow to the champion" connected to the "half hearted victory song" that the sell-outs find themselves singing?


[i]"you walk down alameda looking at the
cracks in the sidewalk
thinking about your friends
how you maintain all them in a constant state of