I haven't listened to all of Zeitgeist yet.

[Tabris]

I simply haven't been interested.

from what I've heard so far, it isn't awful,

I haven't been around in forever, is there any sort of fan consensus on the album?

I'd especially like to hear what the more old-school posters think.

And hi everybody. How's the board held up without me?

[Wayne Arnold]

Without getting into a long explanation...it's very forgettable. If someone told me I could never listen to a Zeitgeist song for the rest of my life, I probably wouldn't be heartbroken. I think it's the worst album Billy's ever touched.

[Tabris]

Without getting into a long explanation...it's very forgettable. If someone told me I could never listen to a Zeitgeist song for the rest of my life, I probably wouldn't be heartbroken. I think it's the worst album Billy's ever touched.

Forgettable sounds like the best way to describe what I've heard.

It sounded like a concept record based on the story of a 16 year old kids -- who had only heard 'bullet with butterfly wings' (a million times) -- impression of what the smashing pumpkins sounded like.

very revisonist history on Billy's part

[Dovecoat]

It's shit, yeah?

*shrug* Not horrible, but yes, forgettable. But I tried to give it a chance and listened to it a lot, and after awhile completely forgot that it's not horrible.

[marquiSP]

I like it. It's not as emotional as some past SP albums, but it has some strong melodies and some fun guitar work (United States). People around here and especially Netphoria seem to enjoy hating on it for some reason, but it's nowhere near as bad as some would have you believe. Certainly better than TFE.

[Wayne Arnold]

It's shit, yeah?

*shrug* Not horrible, but yes, forgettable. But I tried to give it a chance and listened to it a lot, and after awhile completely forgot that it's not horrible.


I wouldn't call it shit. It's fine, but it's certainly not great. I just hate that there's no stand out amazing songs on Zeigeist like there have been on every other Corgan album.

[Dovecoat]

Yeah, it's not horrible. It has some good songs, but not great songs (unless you count Stellar and DFA). But it's certainly forgettable. But I tried so hard to love it and make it not forgettable, but in doing so I kinda overdid a bit... and now I can't stand listening to it.

I guess I just thought it would grow on me, so I tried to let it. But it truly IS forgettable, so that didn't happen.

So my comment was more of a warning, really.

[James Yee-haw]

the track listing is shitty as hell..if you rearrange it to get a better flow its a good album. It's the opposite of your traditional record..all the really shitty songs open, then it's just a clusterfuck...but good songs...bad ordering..that make any sense?

[CrestfallenAlex]

"Not as emotional" as previous outings is a great way to describe it.

I wouldn't call it forgettable. I guess I can agree with Wayne Arnold about not being heartbroken if I was told I could never listen to another song from Zeitgeist. But there are precious few albums in existence that I would indeed be heartbroken about not being able to hear again. And that list may be limited to SD, MCIS, and Adore. (Maybe MSOTS and Gish, too. And The Fragile. And Get Ready. Okay I'll stop.)

On the other hand, I really do love a number of the songs, Starz and Bring the Light foremost among them, and would be sad not to hear them again. I disagree with the "BWBW concept album" description. The closest you get to the anger of that song is United States, and they're hardly similar.

This is all I'll say: If you had to push a button that would eliminate every copy of one Smashing Pumpkins album from the face of the planet, this is the album you'd eliminate, assuming Machina II is not in the equation. Is it the worst album? That's been debated on here ad nauseum, and many people say no. But in terms of meaningfulness to the band's history, it's too new to "matter." Tabris, if I were you, I'd give it some serious attention. See what you think about it. And report back! :D

James Yee-Haw, what would your tracklisting be?

[Tabris]

Tabris, if I were you, I'd give it some serious attention. See what you think about it. And report back! :D

but there are so many records that have come out in the passed year alone that i'd rather pop back in than give Zeitgeist a go. and my BWBW comment was based on the fact that every song i've heard employs very similar arrangements and thich semi-metal guitar sounds of their biggest hit, so it sounded to me that billy took their biggest hit as a bluepring for an album that would continue their legacy, but really it just seems to ignore 3/4's of their sound, sure, they were known for their thick guitar riffage, but they were also a very precious band, they had straight pop, shoegaze psychedelia... half the pumpkins charm was their Beatlesesque ability to jump around with styles and arrangements, even machina had that, this just all seemed like bwbw, zero and everlasting gaze territory

maybe im wrong, does it get more ecclectic towards the end?

[CrestfallenAlex]

It does...maybe not in the way you're thinking, though. I'll agree that the album is more "same-y" sounding than the three titans are. If you're looking for Porcelina, you won't find it. But I think you should give it a shot. And the 15-track version in particular (adding Stellar, DfA and Zeitgeist into the mix really varies it up a lot).

[Cool As Ice Cream]

the track listing is shitty as hell..if you rearrange it to get a better flow its a good album.
oh my god i just got the best idea for a new thread. and then 300 more of those.

[Steven]

I really like it. Not in the same way that I like SD or MCIS, or perhaps even Machina, but I really enjoy it. I don't think its forgettable, but "not as emotional" is a good way to describe it. Honestly, I think Stellar is better than anything Billy Corgan has done in a long, long time.

[jack-o-lantern]

I'd especially like to hear what the more old-school posters think.

Just songs 2-5 make sense. Live is another story, cause they're unable to play Bring the light and Pomp solos Queen-style (as recorded), so you don't have Queen in mind, and thinking it's a rip-off rather than a tribute. And Starz isn't that bad at all live. US though is always bad. Doomsdays clock not that bad live either... Though most of the new songs feature one-string-shredding riffs (Tarantula, Doomsday, *7 shades (*this one is so close to Assassin)) which is what Muse are all about, I, as an old-school pumpkins fan, would recommend "Black holes and revelations" by Muse over "Zeitgeist" :-D

[Liam-M]

i like it =(

HAI HAYDEN :D

[i]

I think there are a few who really like it, most fans enjoy it enough and are hopeful for a good "sophomore" SP2 followup, and then there are some hat0rz.

I think overall it is viewed as their one of their weaker albums. On about a par with machina, which isn't necessarily too bad a reaction.

I think Machina is better - personally I think Zeitgeist is their worst album (not counting machina II) and it's missing something. It still holds up musically as an album on it's own but can't really be compared to their previous catalogue.

There are several good tracks but no real stand outs, and I find the main thematic "epic" (United States) about as enjoyable as Heavy Metal Machine. Doomsday Clock is fine for a Michael Bay soundtrack... it's a decent opener, on about a par with The Everlasting Gaze but without the dynamics, the rant, and the interest. Bleeding the Orchid is well produced but boring. C'mon Let's Go would fit fine on the second half of the Zwan album. For God and Country sounds cool on first few listens but is probably the worst track.
Tarantula, 7 Shades, That's the Way, Neverlost, Bring the Light, Pomp and Circumstances and Starz are the good tracks. And the b-sides.

Best thing about the album - the drumming. Worst thing - Billy's vocals layered on top of Billy's vocals.

[Cool As Ice Cream]

the vocals is just something you need to get used to. it's very weird in the beginning, but after a while you no longer notice.

[Cheryl K]

I really like it. Not in the same way that I like SD or MCIS, or perhaps even Machina, but I really enjoy it. I don't think its forgettable, but "not as emotional" is a good way to describe it. Honestly, I think Stellar is better than anything Billy Corgan has done in a long, long time.

I couldn't have said it better myself.

I like it a lot, and listen to the entire album beginning to end a couple times a week at least.

[eme]

US is the only really really great song on the record. The rest are just average to okay

[Drevpile]

First off - it is worth listening to the full album - i'm sure everyone would agree with that!

I like it - not the best album i ever did hear, but i like it a lot more than Adore (hold off those pitchforks and torches) because i've always liked the more rockin' side of the Pumpkins and there is some really great drumming on Zeitgiest...

I kind of look at the fact that Zeitgeist could have been so much [worse]; Plus credit to them for putting out a new record when a zillion and one other bands just reform to play the greatest hits and cash in on ridiculous merchandising...

wait a minute

[WorldView]

I kind of look at the fact that Zeitgeist could have been so much [worse]; Plus credit to them for putting out a new record when a zillion and one other bands just reform to play the greatest hits and cash in on ridiculous merchandising...

wait a minute

:party:

[jack-o-lantern]

First off - it is worth listening to the full album - i'm sure everyone would agree with that!

Sorry, no. I think it's waste of time :-D

[CrestfallenAlex]

Zeitgeist could have been so much [worse]

:smug: What happened here?

[Kris K]

It's a mediocre record. No replay value whatsoever. That said, it's better than TFE and Machina imo. But then again, those two albums are fucking terrible.

Anyway, lets talk about a good band. Tabris, what did you think of The Stage Names?

[mc_festus]

It's not nearly as bad as tfe, and not quite as good as machina...

[Steven]

I don't really notice the multiple Billy's anymore either. When I first listened to it I was kind of taken aback by it, it really caught me off guard (especially on Starz). I'd love to hear the album with Ginger and Lisa on backup vocals (perhaps another release? Rainbow cover! :D). If they keep this group together for the next album though, I think they can release a hell of an album.

[kendra]

It's fine. It calls forth no strong emotion in me, really. The songs are mostly good, or okay.

[mc_festus]

Sorry, no. I think it's waste of time :-D

stop using that fucking smiley you pompous shit stain!

[mc_festus]

:-D

[kendra]

Y'know that smiley didn't annoy me until about...2001 or so. :D is just so much better

[Moonsongs]

i guess i like zeitgeist more then MSoTS and TFE but it's my least favorite actual SMASHING PUMPKINS album...but that does not mean it is bad at all (considering i like MSoTS and TFE quite a bit...especially MSoTS).

[Moonsongs]

Y'know that smiley didn't annoy me until about...2001 or so. :D is just so much better

that one is definitely more adorable. kinda like your signature. :D

[mc_festus]

Y'know that smiley didn't annoy me until about...2001 or so. :D is just so much better

:D is easily the best, followed by :hate:, :org:, and D:

[Kris K]

I love the :D smilie, but I think this comes second :darn:

[mc_festus]

haha, tis a goodn' indeed

[Cool As Ice Cream]

don't forget about :cry:

[Cheryl K]

The orange ones are my favorite. :D, :drool:, etc.

I do love :darn:, it's like, "ah damnit..."

[i]

I like :oh: !

[Geo]

don't forget about :cry:



that's my favorite smiley. i think it reminds me of lucas and it also makes me think the person is screaming their post hysterically. that being said this ":D" comes in a close second.


back to the topic at hand, i really really like Zeitgeist. it's my least favorite pumpkins album, but that's not too harsh...know what i'm saying? it's pretty damn good, but doesn't stand up to anything else of theirs. that being said, it's generally more metal than their previous cds and ignores the mellow (to a certain extent). which is probably why i like it least.


also, HI HAYDEN!!!! you've been out of my life for too damn long

[TheDeuce]

i like zeitgeist. it's a better than machina. besides TEG, AOI, and (maybe) SIYL the song on there are all bland and plodding. at least with zeitgeist we got some REAL rock tunes. loud guitars and energy. i love zeitgeist.

[Osceana]

oh my god i just got the best idea for a new thread. and then 300 more of those.

My favorite smileys: :D :ok: :santa: :hate:

The best ever: D:

"Zeitgeist" is a really good album, i really love it. It's full of a lot of solid jams, but, as most other people have said, it lacks any real, substantial emotional substratum. So i find it really hard to connect with the album on a visceral level, which is how i like my rock. Fortunately for me part of my brain is dedicated to the primitive, neanderthalian enjoyment of those monolithic riffs....so i like it.

[Daysleeper]

Zee favourite smilies....

:(
:cry:
:D
D:
:oh:

[Tabris]

It's a mediocre record. No replay value whatsoever. That said, it's better than TFE and Machina imo. But then again, those two albums are fucking terrible.

Anyway, lets talk about a good band. Tabris, what did you think of The Stage Names?

I like it a lot, it's a hell of a pop record... there all really great songs actually, but I don't think it measures up to the cohesive whole or emotional resonance of Black Sheep Boy, it's not nearly as challenging either, didn't take me many listens to get it.
And the meta sensibilities of the lyrics, while helping single songs out ('plus ones' is amazing) didn't help me get absorbed into the world of the record.

I could go on and on about what I thought, but simply put, it's a very solid record that leaves a bit to be desired. Not a dissapointment at all.

[Tabris]

Plus credit to them for putting out a new record when a zillion and one other bands just reform to play the greatest hits and cash in on ridiculous merchandising...

wait a minute
that's the main thing really, I haven't wanted to listen to it not because I don't want to hear the music, but because, despite Billy's artistic insistance, this seems like more of a cash cow reunion than any of the other bands I can think of. The ammount of alternate versions this thing has is absolutely disgraceful, it's cheap and disgusting and a slap in the face to anybody who would want to buy the record, it's really pissing on the fans, "I see your money, now buy all the different versions at these major retailers, they don't need your mone,y we don't need your money, but give it!" I really can't approach this record without a crass dispossition going in to it, and thats not any fun.

it's also a slap in the face to the record itself, a record should speak for itself without bonus tracks, they should have figured out what the fuck they wanted on the record before all this retarded shit and just put some ep/singles out

[CrestfallenAlex]

that's the main thing really, I haven't wanted to listen to it not because I don't want to hear the music, but because, despite Billy's artistic insistance, this seems like more of a cash cow reunion than any of the other bands I can think of. The ammount of alternate versions this thing has is absolutely disgraceful, it's cheap and disgusting and a slap in the face to anybody who would want to buy the record, it's really pissing on the fans, "I see your money, now buy all the different versions at these major retailers, they don't need your mone,y we don't need your money, but give it!" I really can't approach this record without a crass dispossition going in to it, and thats not any fun.

it's also a slap in the face to the record itself, a record should speak for itself without bonus tracks, they should have figured out what the fuck they wanted on the record before all this retarded shit and just put some ep/singles out

See other thread, man. It's simply a marketing attempt on the part of Reprise to entice people who have not yet bought the album to do so. The reality of the digital age--putting out "new"/"bonus"/"exclusive" material is thought to be the best way to get people over that "I don't know..." hump of buying from a brick-and-mortar retailer. They're not after us. As someone else mentioned, if it were lucrative to bleed the hardcore fan-base dry, we would have had Gish, Pisces and Machina guitar tab books LONG ago, to say nothing of the widespread release of the Moon Demos, etc.

Jesus Christ, what would Billy and Jimmy have to do to satsify you people? Release the record on the internet and play all their shows for free?

[Osceana]

See other thread, man. It's simply a marketing attempt on the part of Reprise to entice people who have not yet bought the album to do so. The reality of the digital age--putting out "new"/"bonus"/"exclusive" material is thought to be the best way to get people over that "I don't know..." hump of buying from a brick-and-mortar retailer. They're not after us. As someone else mentioned, if it were lucrative to bleed the hardcore fan-base dry, we would have had Gish, Pisces and Machina guitar tab books LONG ago, to say nothing of the widespread release of the Moon Demos, etc.

Jesus Christ, what would Billy and Jimmy have to do to satsify you people? Release the record on the internet and play all their shows for free?

Word. I'm sorry, but anyone that hollers "sellout" doesn't know the first fucking thing about marketing, let alone the financial logistics surrounding the release and promotion of this album.

People periodically need something to bitch about though, so i guess this does the trick.

[Dovecoat]

See other thread, man. It's simply a marketing attempt on the part of Reprise to entice people who have not yet bought the album to do so. The reality of the digital age--putting out "new"/"bonus"/"exclusive" material is thought to be the best way to get people over that "I don't know..." hump of buying from a brick-and-mortar retailer. They're not after us. As someone else mentioned, if it were lucrative to bleed the hardcore fan-base dry, we would have had Gish, Pisces and Machina guitar tab books LONG ago, to say nothing of the widespread release of the Moon Demos, etc.

Jesus Christ, what would Billy and Jimmy have to do to satsify you people? Release the record on the internet and play all their shows for free?

I'm skeptical that it's all Reprise's doing. Yes, I'm sure they championed it. But Billy is certainly in a point of his career that he can put his foot down and refuse. Hell, he has enough money that he could have just released Zeitgeist on Constantinople and gotten a distribution deal himself. However, we have god knows how many versions of that godforsaken album now.

The best excuse I've heard so far is "Billy doesn't care either way", which doesn't sit well with me. For an artist to be that apathetic about how their work is presented and how their fans are exploited is disgusting to me. It's just lazy. Especially for an album attacking over-exploitation/consumerism and inciting a "consciousness revolution". It just seems very hypocritical at worst and ironic at best.

And I think that's what many defenders fail to notice... Fine, it's "business", whatever. But Billy is vehemently attacking the "it's just business" mentality with Zeitgeist. So if we're stupid for caring, then Billy's also stupid for caring, and even more stupid for being a hypocrite about it.

As for the guitar tabs... SD, MCIS, and Adore all had tab books released very close to the album releases, and all of those albums sold well over a million copies in their first year or so of release. Not the case with Gish, Machina, or PI (to my knowledge... though PI has sold well over time). So tab books wouldn't be worth it... even if they made up the cost, no one would make much off of them. So it's moot, coz the release of those wouldn't milk fans at all (at least not to the Pumpkins' advantage).

The other side is yes, they have released free things in the past. Though them charging money for the album doesn't upset me in the least... why wouldn't they? What upsets me is the exploitative way they're doing so.

As far as what it would take to make me happy... I'm all for charging money for albums, charging for shows, etc... I don't even mind licensing to commercials, etc... But several releases of the same half-ass album, all with slightly different things? The one saving grace is that Billy probably knows that fans will steal the extra songs.

Yes, it's a business. But it's also more than that. They should respect their fans if they expect their fans to respect them. Pure and simple.

[Wayne Arnold]

At the shows I went to in Boston, the hooded sweatshirt was listed at $100. $100. Even if the venue takes...40% (which is very high), think about how overpriced that is. Anyone who would do that surely wouldn't speak up when being told that a 6th version is coming out.

[Dovecoat]

At the shows I went to in Boston, the hooded sweatshirt was listed at $100. $100. Even if the venue takes...40% (which is very high), think about how overpriced that is. Anyone who would do that surely wouldn't speak up when being told that a 6th version is coming out.

I realise that, and that's actually why I'm upset about it. Because obviously he doesn't care. But give him a fucking guitar and he'll wail out "Reeeeeeeevoluuuution! Reeeeeeeeeeeeeevoluuuuuution!" or mournfully croon "lost on this road, are there any real souls?"

If he could just come out and say "hey, I love money, but I'm also a great artist" then cool, whatever. But to be apathetic and opportunistic while babbling about a "consciousness revolution" or about the "unaccountability" of stars "these days"? Pfft!

[Kris K]

I feel another SP Board Civil War coming along.

http://www.blamonet.com/wiki/index.php/SP_Board_Civil_War_of_04/05

Learn your history people!

[Wayne Arnold]

I feel another SP Board Civil War coming along.

http://www.blamonet.com/wiki/index.php/SP_Board_Civil_War_of_04/05

Learn your history people!


Who's on what side?

[Osceana]

At the shows I went to in Boston, the hooded sweatshirt was listed at $100. $100. Even if the venue takes...40% (which is very high), think about how overpriced that is. Anyone who would do that surely wouldn't speak up when being told that a 6th version is coming out.

Artists, especially big artists, make very little money on merchandise. You contract out a merchandising company that has to actually market, promote, and sell that stuff. That shit costs money, that combined with the product cost itself (bulk shirts, printing, shipping) and the label's and venue's share of it, leaves the band with very little financial margins to work with.

Also, releasing "Zeitgeist" across different platforms like this isn't really milking anyone dry. The production values and marketing/promotion for all these simultaneous releases adds up. I really can't see how they are sitting on piles of money somewhere on a tropical island laughing over martinis at the stupidity of their fans. Come on, get real. That's just not realistic. The album only recently went gold....it's not hitting gross levels of excess quite yet.

Releasing an album across multiple platforms like this is really just a response to the shift that is happening within the industry toady. Ubiquity just leads to more sales. I think it's more realistic to imagine Billy as not caring either way.... People that are unfamiliar with the album will be enticed to buy it, and those "troo fans" out there will just download that stuff someplace else. Billy's not a dumb guy, he knows that.

The Virgin Megastore in my city (Chicago) just shut down. That's major. Those suits have to get creative to counter the effects of the internet. They are getting paid just as well as Billy is.... They put money into this record, so they want to see it turn a profit.

Now Billy is certainly in a position in his career that he could control the financial mechanics behind an album's release, but why would he? Do you even know how much time that would take? The guy's rehearsing and then touring non-stop for months on end and you really think he's sitting in some executive board room somewhere picking out the color of the next album, curling his mustache and snickering over the demise of our bank accounts? The guy can only do so much. Those of you deriding their ethical bankruptcy have such a bizarre amount of faith in this one man, it's almost comical. Such ideas must surely put a tremendous amount of strain on your suspension of disbelief.

Sure, i'm sure Billy may have signed off on it, it's not like he's unaware of it, but i think it's really more the case here that it seems like the most reasonable solution to the "problem".

[Wayne Arnold]

Artists, especially big artists, make very little money on merchandise. You contract out a merchandising company that has to actually market, promote, and sell that stuff. That shit costs money, that combined with the product cost itself (bulk shirts, printing, shipping) and the label's and venue's share of it, leaves the band with very little financial margins to work with.


I guarantee you the label doesn't take a cut of their merchandise from shows. From some artists, sure. But not them. None of this means the price should be $100, that's above and beyond.

I'll assume the rest of your post is not directed at me since I had a similar, less verbose post in the beginning of this thread.

[Osceana]

I guarantee you the label doesn't take a cut of their merchandise from shows. From some artists, sure. But not them. None of this means the price should be $100, that's above and beyond.

I'll assume the rest of your post is not directed at me since I had a similar, less verbose post in the beginning of this thread.

Yeah, not you.

You know though, i could MAYBE concede that they are reaping considerable dividends from their merchandise. I'm recalling their case against those people that were counterfeiting their merch at shows.... Though, like i said, having worked in that industry myself, artists really make jack shit on that stuff. It's disgusting how much those people charge just to stand there and hand out YOUR stuff.

I remember people payed around 100$ for the "End" shirts at the "last" show back in 2000. I think some people even payed more than that on eBay.

[Wayne Arnold]

I remember people payed around 100$ for the "End" shirts at the "last" show back in 2000. I think some people even payed more than that on eBay.


Are you serious? Less than a year after the show you could get one off their website for 20 bucks. I want to meet these idiots.

[Kris K]

Who's on what side?

Everyone vs. Oceana, Peter and Bram

[Osceana]

Everyone vs. Oceania, Peter and Bram

I like those odds.

[Drevpile]

oh oh

[Dovecoat]

Artists, especially big artists, make very little money on merchandise. You contract out a merchandising company that has to actually market, promote, and sell that stuff. That shit costs money, that combined with the product cost itself (bulk shirts, printing, shipping) and the label's and venue's share of it, leaves the band with very little financial margins to work with.

It costs money, but not *that much* money.

Also, releasing "Zeitgeist" across different platforms like this isn't really milking anyone dry. The production values and marketing/promotion for all these simultaneous releases adds up. I really can't see how they are sitting on piles of money somewhere on a tropical island laughing over martinis at the stupidity of their fans. Come on, get real. That's just not realistic. The album only recently went gold....it's not hitting gross levels of excess quite yet.

It may only have gone gold, but I'm willing to bet a good share of the reason for that is fans who bought 2 or 3 copies. Also, Billboard charts don't include internet/download sales (at least they didn't last time I checked, but there's a good chance they've started or will), so sales figures are (or were... see previous comment) very skewed now. Regardless, it's not even a matter of them laughing at fans about it... it's the issue of them making that a possibility.

Releasing an album across multiple platforms like this is really just a response to the shift that is happening within the industry toady. Ubiquity just leads to more sales. I think it's more realistic to imagine Billy as not caring either way.... People that are unfamiliar with the album will be enticed to buy it, and those "troo fans" out there will just download that stuff someplace else. Billy's not a dumb guy, he knows that.

For an artist to not care about how their work is PRESENTED is no excuse. Any great artist builds their legend. Billy's not doing a good job of that anymore. So regardless of who buys what, the very fact that it's being presented in such a way desperate and exploitative.

Now Billy is certainly in a position in his career that he could control the financial mechanics behind an album's release, but why would he? Do you even know how much time that would take? The guy's rehearsing and then touring non-stop for months on end and you really think he's sitting in some executive board room somewhere picking out the color of the next album, curling his mustache and snickering over the demise of our bank accounts? The guy can only do so much. Those of you deriding their ethical bankruptcy have such a bizarre amount of faith in this one man, it's almost comical. Such ideas must surely put a tremendous amount of strain on your suspension of disbelief.

Why would he care? Because, the "product" is his music. He's the creator, and everything reflects back to him. So it would be in his best interest to control the way it's presented.

And so he's just one man... so what? So was Jesus Christ, Billy's idol :rolleyes: And take an artist like Marc Bolan... during the heyday of T. Rextacy, his albums were cheaper than every other album, his concert tickets were half the price of bands with equivalent popularity and the same venues, he hated releasing the same song twice, and thus didn't, or if he had to, in a way that wouldn't give fans incentive to buy it, ie: if he released an album track as a single, the b-side would also be an album track so fans with the album wouldn't have to buy the single. And many of his singles were non-album tracks with non-album b-sides. This way, fans would never need to pay for the same song twice. And he was just "one man", and way more famous than Billy Corgan ever has been and ever will be.

Basically, I think any great artist realises the ramifications and impact of their art, and makes that their personal responsibility. And Billy came into this leading everyone to believe he felt that way... attacking the "unaccountability" of celebrities, calling for a "consciousness revolution", etc... So yeah, I had faith in him... more than I ever had before. And this kinda killed it. You can argue that this isn't a big deal all you want, and in most any other case, I'd agree. But the fact is that Billy is the one who made it a big deal and initially presented it as such... and has since proved to be as much of an unaccountable, opportunistic, unenlightened whore as everyone and everything he was attacking.

[Kris K]

I like those odds.

I don't know man, Bram and Peter would probably be too busy tracking down the Zeitgeist Special Edition Burger King Drink Cup (in all 8 colors) to help you.

[selection7]

As for the guitar tabs... SD, MCIS, and Adore all had tab books released very close to the album releases, and all of those albums sold well over a million copies in their first year or so of release. Not the case with Gish, Machina, or PI (to my knowledge... though PI has sold well over time). So tab books wouldn't be worth it... even if they made up the cost, no one would make much off of them. So it's moot, coz the release of those wouldn't milk fans at all (at least not to the Pumpkins' advantage).


You're proving our point, so don't be stubborn. Mostly because they'd easily make more money selling new tab books than depending on SP collectors to buy multiple copies of Zeitgeist. I doubt there's more than 1000 fans in the US that are as hardcore an SP fan as me, and even I only bought 1 copy! If you happen to be one of those SP collectors, sorry to burst your bubble, but you're nothing to them. As the tab books are concerned, it doesn't matter to them that the development would be practically nil; if it's not going to sell 10 thousand copies, they're not interested, even if it's easy money and there's 5 million people out there that have those other SP albums, 10% of which play the guitar.

In reference to your last statement, I don't care (and I'm confident in that I represent the average SP fan more than you do) so why should Billy care? The only thing I care about is how it gives the shaft to independent music stores, so they should include the independents like Weezer did. But I literally think it's cool that I got to choose which version of Zeitgeist I bought. More choice to the consumer is ok with me.

[Osceana]

words

I just think how high you people are building this mountain is ridiculous.

As i said earlier, people that constantly decry how "unjust" an artist is- how they've "sold out", typically don't understand anything and are just too busy pontificating to realize what's really going on. I honestly think that the collective scrutiny put forth by Blamo far outshines and far exceeds the amount of thought that was put into the marketing aspect of this album from the band's end.

Now, for the record, i just want to say that i think this is ridiculous. Why on Earth a band needs to re-release an album like this is beyond me. It's ridiculous, but i'm not going to go on a Smashing Pumpkins hate-fest because of it. The amount of good the Pumpkins have done in the music industry and artistic rock community venerates them enough. Motherfuckers have put in their time and been around the block enough to not have to answer to anyone.

I think to really get into the meat and potatoes of this thing though, you'd probably have to be a market research analyst to really understand it. I am far from being such, as are most of the people here on Blamo, but i'm willing to bet that there are people at Reprise that are specifically dedicated to this task, and i would also be willing to wager that what they've found is that different people shop at different locations....or maybe it's not that complex at all, who knows?

All in all i think what it really comes down to is that stuff like this costs money. It costs money to put them on the road, to print up 5 million different books all in different colors, to pay some guy an absurd amount of money to create an image for the album that someone fresh out of college could have done in 5 minutes, and of course the record execs have their houseboats and mistresses.

People really want to believe, like Billy said, that it's all about the music, it's all about the art, and then they get mad when they find out it's not. These same people are the people that support capitalism in all it's greed and ugly extremes on a day to day basis, yet deride someone for wanting to share in the collective profits. It's ridiculous and absurd.

They could have taken the Radiohead road and released it for "free", but the only real reason Radiohead did that was because they weren't on a label. The only reason the Pumpkins released "Machina 2" on Constantinople (which is now a defunct business model, by the way) is because they didn't have a label then.

Comparing the Pumpkins to T. Rex is beyond unfair. The industry was much, much different back then. People actually bought shit. Today people don't, they want it all for free, they want everything. They think they deserve it all.... This day and age is totally different.

Really the bottom line to me is just the fact that it's business. If you level the playing field, really level it, you'll find everyone is pretty much doing the same thing. I'm doing it, you're doing it, Radiohead is doing it or has done it, shit, even fucking Pitchfork does it- even after being one of the most outspoken detractors of the band's marketing "schemes" and tactics. It's capitalism. The best you can do as an artist in this day and age is to try to have a convenient marriage between the business model of the industry, and the artistic, conceptive side of the music itself. All in all though i think that you're just over-analyzing this thing too much, really. Ubiquity=sales. That's the end of it. I'd like to meet 5 REAL Pumpkins fans (because casual listeners are not going to shell out for two of the same album) that have bought more than one album because they actually wanted the extra songs. And don't bring me people that are just trying to complete their collection. I myself bought the "Today" single 10 times over and i'm not ashamed of it, i'm glad they released it that way, so they are serving my needs in that way.

I just want to know who they are actually exploiting.

Also, i think that more people in this day and age are probably more familiar with Billy Corgan and the Smashing Pumpkins than they are with T. Rex. I'd say they are on pretty even footing in terms of legacy and fame.

[Osceana]

I don't know man, Bram and Peter would probably be too busy tracking down the Zeitgeist Special Edition Burger King Drink Cup (in all 8 colors) to help you.

lmao :lol:

[Dovecoat]

You're proving our point, so don't be stubborn.

And what point is that?

Mostly because they'd easily make more money selling new tab books than depending on SP collectors to buy multiple copies of Zeitgeist.

Um... actually, I pointed out that they wouldn't make any money off new tab books. But they are, however, making money off new copies of Zeitgeist. Which in itself is irrelevant, because making money is fine... good for them. But not in such a sleazy way.

I doubt there's more than 1000 fans in the US that are as hardcore an SP fan as me, and even I only bought 1 copy!

You'd be surprised. And keep in mind, this album was released worldwide.

If you happen to be one of those SP collectors, sorry to burst your bubble, but you're nothing to them.

No... I only bought one copy. But you just proved *my* point... their most devout/collector fans are "nothing to them", and they've made that quite clear. I find that disgusting.

As the tab books are concerned, it doesn't matter to them that the development would be practically nil; if it's not going to sell 10 thousand copies, they're not interested, even if it's easy money and there's 5 million people out there that have those other SP albums, 10% of which play the guitar.

So tab books are profitable. That's what I said. So again, how am I proving your point?

In reference to your last statement, I don't care (and I'm confident in that I represent the average SP fan more than you do) so why should Billy care? The only thing I care about is how it gives the shaft to independent music stores, so they should include the independents like Weezer did. But I literally think it's cool that I got to choose which version of Zeitgeist I bought. More choice to the consumer is ok with me.

But the thing is, Billy DOES care. Or at least he's said he does. He's made impassioned points of it. Which is the basis of MY point... Billy cares, yet people like you say other fans are stupid for caring. It's just a cop-out to valid arguments.

And I'm sure you do represent the average SP fan more than I, but I've always been a bit squeamy of the average SP fan (particularly the "grunge will never die!!!1" set).

And you're upset that it's giving the shaft to independent record stores? Do you realise how every other aspect plays into that?

[Geo]

I don't know man, Bram and Peter would probably be too busy tracking down the Zeitgeist Special Edition Burger King Drink Cup (in all 8 colors) to help you.



you must spread some reputation around before giving it to kris k again.

[Dovecoat]

I honestly think that the collective scrutiny put forth by Blamo far outshines and far exceeds the amount of thought that was put into the marketing aspect of this album from the band's end.

And that's largely what I'm upset about. I'll spare the same rant I've given 3 or 4 times already.

I think to really get into the meat and potatoes of this thing though, you'd probably have to be a market research analyst to really understand it. I am far from being such, as are most of the people here on Blamo, but i'm willing to bet that there are people at Reprise that are specifically dedicated to this task, and i would also be willing to wager that what they've found is that different people shop at different locations....or maybe it's not that complex at all, who knows?

I'm sure you're right... but that's irrelevant.

All in all i think what it really comes down to is that stuff like this costs money. It costs money to put them on the road, to print up 5 million different books all in different colors, to pay some guy an absurd amount of money to create an image for the album that someone fresh out of college could have done in 5 minutes, and of course the record execs have their houseboats and mistresses.

Record labels don't pay for or profit off of tours. That's why most tours are sponsored. So it doesn't cost them a cent to put the Pumpkins on tour.

People really want to believe, like Billy said, that it's all about the music, it's all about the art, and then they get mad when they find out it's not.

Except I never said it was. In fact, I said the opposite. Once again, if Billy was an average rock star who released an album then mooched it for all its worth... fine, whatever. But he took it upon himself to attack that attitude... the radio interview around the release of Zeitgeist where he dissed the "unaccountability" of stars, the song-by-song video where he talked about United States calling for a "consciousness revolution", a song like "Peace & Love & All that Other Shit", etc... Basically, Billy has fallen into the Bono realm. "This is evil, that's good, blah blah blah blah... now watch as I act like a hypocritical retard".

They could have taken the Radiohead road and released it for "free", but the only real reason Radiohead did that was because they weren't on a label. The only reason the Pumpkins released "Machina 2" on Constantinople (which is now a defunct business model, by the way) is because they didn't have a label then.

I admire Radiohead for doing something different, but I don't think it was as brilliant as people are making it to be. Ultimately, it's futile.

Comparing the Pumpkins to T. Rex is beyond unfair. The industry was much, much different back then. People actually bought shit. Today people don't, they want it all for free, they want everything. They think they deserve it all.... This day and age is totally different.

People still buy shit. What's the use of releasing several copies of the album if they didn't think people would buy it? Also, teenagers had less disposable income, and bootlegs were actually more common that people claim... And now, as Western culture spreads, there's more of a market. So actually, the industry is better off now than it was then, despite what people say (seriously... compare figures). EDIT: "The industry is dying" is in relation to its hold in the mid-80s through late 90s, when it was debatably at its peak. But the market now is actually more lucrative than it was in the 60s and 70s, even in the "disaster" state it's supposedly in.

Really the bottom line to me is just the fact that it's business.

And if we were talking about David Bowie, Bryan Ferry, My Chemical Romance, 50 Cent, etc... I'd agree, and say that's fine. But to me, the bottom line is that Billy was vocal about it being more than "business" (which I respected), but is now contradicting that.

For the record, I have nothing against capitalism, except when its an ends to its own means.

[Geo]

woah. these posts are getting pretty crazy long/complex. am i the only one who stopped reading posts that are longer than a couple of sentences? (nothing against you guys...just saying)

[Dovecoat]

*shrug* It's a discussion forum. Discussion forum came about so people could discuss things. If someone doesn't want to read long posts, then cool. I feel the same sometimes. But I think it's pretty ridiculous for people to throw jabs for people actually, um, discussing things.

I personally like it when people actually have thoughts they want to rant about. It shows a passion and lack of apathy that I find endearing.

[CrestfallenAlex]

Everyone just needs to listen to Osceana. Here's the Cliffs' Notes version (zomg, a new version of his post??!?!?!?!):

Releasing an album across multiple platforms like this is really just a response to the shift that is happening within the industry toady. Ubiquity just leads to more sales.

People that are unfamiliar with the album will be enticed to buy it, and those "troo fans" out there will just download that stuff someplace else.

The Virgin Megastore in my city (Chicago) just shut down. That's major. Those suits have to get creative to counter the effects of the internet.

i'm sure Billy may have signed off on it, it's not like he's unaware of it, but i think it's really more the case here that it seems like the most reasonable solution to the "problem".

I'd like to meet 5 REAL Pumpkins fans (because casual listeners are not going to shell out for two of the same album) that have bought more than one album because they actually wanted the extra songs. And don't bring me people that are just trying to complete their collection. I myself bought the "Today" single 10 times over and i'm not ashamed of it, i'm glad they released it that way, so they are serving my needs in that way.

I just want to know who they are actually exploiting.

If it is your goal to own everything ever released by The Smashing Pumpkins, then you should not complain when they release material.

If it is your goal to have every song, download the extras.

[CrestfallenAlex]

At the shows I went to in Boston, the hooded sweatshirt was listed at $100. $100. Even if the venue takes...40% (which is very high), think about how overpriced that is. Anyone who would do that surely wouldn't speak up when being told that a 6th version is coming out.

Another way to look at this is:

It costs a lot of money to take on tour the big light and sound spectacular that is The Smashing Pumpkins. Merchandise sales go towards these costs. At the same time, everyone who purchases a ticket reaps the benefit of the light and sound equipment, regardless of whether they purchase any shirts. Indeed, some fans have to literally scrape together the $40 (or $60?) to get to see the show, and they aren't about to spend more on overpriced clothing. For other fans, though, that's a drop in the bucket. These wealthier fans may see a $100 sweatshirt and decide that that's worth it.

In this way, the band makes more money off of the people who want to spend more, and less money off of the people who don't.

The alterative: sell at-cost merchandise and raise the ticket prices.

I know which method I prefer.

[Wayne Arnold]

Another way to look at this is:

It costs a lot of money to take on tour the big light and sound spectacular that is The Smashing Pumpkins. Merchandise sales go towards these costs. At the same time, everyone who purchases a ticket reaps the benefit of the light and sound equipment, regardless of whether they purchase any shirts. Indeed, some fans have to literally scrape together the $40 (or $60?) to get to see the show, and they aren't about to spend more on overpriced clothing. For other fans, though, that's a drop in the bucket. These wealthier fans may see a $100 sweatshirt and decide that that's worth it.

In this way, the band makes more money off of the people who want to spend more, and less money off of the people who don't.

The alterative: sell at-cost merchandise and raise the ticket prices.

I know which method I prefer.

I'm not challenging supply and demand or a consumer's choice in buying or not buying merchandise. All I'm saying is 100 dollars for sweatshirt is too much. If someone prices their merchandise at a hundred bucks, it says alot about the person. There's a difference between at-cost and marking them way up. However, I do commend them on the ticket prices, they've always been pretty good about that.

[Asher]

Reprise Records deserve to lose as much money as possible for forcing a scavenger hunt to find the decent songs. Do not be stupid and buy every version of this record, its barely worth the price of one.

The packaging is, well, hideous. On my list of things to do is create an all black CD package that has the band name and rose image (it was on the myspace page in March (?)) in white for the cover.

As for the music itself, which should be most important:

Given that the band (or record label) doesn't seem to feel that there is a set order for the songs, I haven't given much thought to how they compliment each other, of if there is one listing that gives more logical continuity than another. From my own listening habits, "Bring the Light" and "(Come On) Let's Go!" should stay linked.

"Stellar" "Neverlost", and "That's the Way" are the three songs I keep coming back to. "Bring the Light" and "(Come On) Let's Go!" have grown on me after I've heard them live. They remind me of the Zwan period, and not just because of the exclamation point.

"Doomsday Clock" sounds weak compared to "Where Boys Fear to Tread", although I like the vocal effect for the lyrics "gas masks on" (?).

"Seven Shades of Black"- I wanted to like it. I just can't seem to find something to grab onto that captures my interest yet.

"Bleeding the Orchid"- Bleeding my wallet.

"That's the Way (My Love Is)"- Standout for the album. Great song, better than SIYL in my opinion. It isn't overblown, and I can take it seriously. :D

"Tarantula"- Had I never seen the video, this song may have stood a chance. I do like the quiet break, unfortunately it gets cut off.

"Starz"- I do like the drumming. The 70s live again, I guess.

"Neverlost"- The other strong song. I like the marimba.

"Death From Above"- LOL when I think of the power rangers video that's been taken off Youtube.

"Bring the Light"- the vocals turn sour briefly, but great energy. Love the drumming.

"(Come On) Let's Go!"- a fun rock song. Forget trying to be artistic or serious, adopt a Zwan mindset. This song makes my day and makes me smile.

"For God and Country"- I keep laughing when I think of the story- "wow, that's a lot of bass!" Rather forgettable.

"Pomp and Circumstances"- I don't care for this one at all.

"Stellar"- should be on every CD pressed IMO. I love this song almost as much as "That's the Way (My Love Is)".

"Ma Belle"- Only listened to it once. I think I may like it.

[CrestfallenAlex]

However, I do commend them on the ticket prices, they've always been pretty good about that.

Uh...right. That's what I'm saying, the $100 sweatshirt is what allows them to keep the ticket prices reasonable.

It's the same with movie theatre concessions. You can say they're "too expensive" until you're blue in the face, but would you rather they be cheaper and pay more for your ticket? I wouldn't.

[CrestfallenAlex]

Do not be stupid and buy every version of this record, its barely worth the price of one.

The fact that this joke can even be made with a straight face is a testament to the incredible change the digital age is wreaking on the music industry.

[Asher]

At the shows I went to in Boston, the hooded sweatshirt was listed at $100. $100. Even if the venue takes...40% (which is very high), think about how overpriced that is.

Holy shit, what? I missed that. I saw the flag for $30, and I skimmed the shirts and said to myself that I really can only wear printed shirts on weekends nowadays, so any shirt I bought would have sat in a drawer.

$100? An authentic baseball jersey costs that at Olympia Sports. A regulation fitted MLB hat is $31, no matter the team. But $100 for a sweatshirt at a concert? The long-sleeve Zero shirts were $30, but that was ten years ago.

What the fuck. I didn't even buy a drink. D:

[Asher]

The fact that this joke can even be made with a straight face is a testament to the incredible change the digital age is wreaking on the music industry.

If the music industry stopped trying to shove Ashlee Simpson and Avril Lavigne down our throats they wouldn't be in this position.

[akane]

I haven't read the entire thread, but to answer the initial question: from an objective standpoint, the record is alright. I've listened to it quite a lot, and enjoy it very much, but that's just the fan inside me talking.

The best way I would describe the record is "fun, but samey". The record just chugs on through with a bunch of rock songs and then sort of tries to expand towards the end, but ultimately it's very monotonous in terms of styles and sounds, especially compared to their previous records. The b-sides released cover a bit more ground, but of course, in the end they're b-sides, and not part of the album, despite all these exclusive releases and rereleases and topics where people are asking "where does blah blah go on the tracklisting?"

So basically, it's just a bunch of rawk. It's a fun record, but it has absolutely no artistic value or anything, but I that apparently was the original intent anyway, so whatever.

I think "Tarantula" and "United States" are pretty fucking amazing though.

[Wayne Arnold]

Uh...right. That's what I'm saying, the $100 sweatshirt is what allows them to keep the ticket prices reasonable.

It's the same with movie theatre concessions. You can say they're "too expensive" until you're blue in the face, but would you rather they be cheaper and pay more for your ticket? I wouldn't.


But this is where you're wrong. Plenty of artists tour on cheaper tickets and cheaper merchandise. Do you really think they're making enough off of sweatshirts to make up for reasonable ticket costs? Not a chance. I'm not blaming them for trying to make money, but there's no relationship between these two prices.

[CrestfallenAlex]

Plenty of artists also tour with less expensive lighting and sound equipment.

Just sayin'.

[Wayne Arnold]

But there's the otherside of it as well. I went to a Weezer show once with a much bigger light rig and stage set up. Paid 30 dollars and the merchandise was fairly cheap.

The point I'm making is that even Billy didn't come up with the idea for 6 versions, I don't think it's beyond him to try and make some extra money. If you disagree with this, that's fine.

[WorldView]

I remember people payed around 100$ for the "End" shirts at the "last" show back in 2000. I think some people even payed more than that on eBay.

Uhm, I flew out for both of the final Chicago shows and they had plenty of "End" shirts for $20. I bought one at the United Center show, and wore it to the Metro show. I did not see any stands selling them or ANY merch for $100.

...and just like Wayne Arnold said, they were all over the web (including ebay) for a few yrs after for like $20.

[Jackal]

Yeah, but, isn't it true that you don't have to actually buy anything to own the new albums. You can get every edition for free.

You don't have to go to a concert to see the concert.

You can copy the design and print out your own t-shirt iron-on.

Billy knows a lot of people are getting his art/music for free.

He also know his loving fans are mental and will turn on him viciously for tiny reasons. I don't see any reason why he should not do whatever the hell he wants.

Billy, like me, can never have too much money. :flirt:

[CrestfallenAlex]

Well said.

To Dovecoat...I realized that I'm not trying to argue anything about the merits of the multiple releases, which is what you're so down on, I think. Are the multiple releases kind of gauche? Unromantic? Lacking artistic respectability? Maybe. But what they aren't is an attempt to rip off the fans of The Smashing Pumpkins.

[Osceana]

freestyling

The record label DEFINITELY pays for the tours. Are you kidding me? You think all that money comes from the sponsors? Record labels offer support, and a lot of the times it's included in the advance. If you're not getting support you're getting fucked.

And i'm just reading between the lines here. You're upset because Billy's being sleazy and hypocritical. If you're labeling a certain behavior as "sleazy", then you obviously find it unsavory, therefore you think that it's bad, at least to some extent. We'd all like to pull the sheepskin over our eyes and believe that an artist can go out and fight the good fight, make music- not money, but it's not like that. You wouldn't be on this message board if somebody somewhere hadn't made a bunch of money in a sleazy manner.

Again, i think most people would agree that this business model is a little skewed and fucked. But you're trying to convince me that if Billy turned into Britney Spears then you'd be okay with that, and i don't buy that.

Is Billy being hypocritical? Not really, i don't think so.... Again, like i said, it's a marriage of convenience. That's why i say that people get all starry-eyed and think that it's all about the music, not about the money.... They forget that money is an essential part of that equation. A band like the Pumpkins would not exist in this iteration without that money and financial scheming.

I think your views on the industry are very skewed though. Your logic is akin to saying that a person who had 300$ in the depression was poor by today's standards. But like i said though, the Virgin Megastore does not close down a huge, major retail outlet in the third largest city in the U.S. because "the industry is better off these days". People are not buying things these days. Some are, granted. I saw people walk in and out of that Virgin store every day with bags full of shit, but they were hemorrhaging financially. The internet has all but killed the industry. It really has, almost literally become a singles market. I was speaking with a friend of mine about that, actually. It almost makes more sense from a financial perspective for R&B Star #1 to team up with Rap Star #5 and release a single that does really well, rather than recording an entire album that only sells moderately well. It's like back in the day when artists would go in and record spots, like Robert Johnson did. iTunes has done a lot of good, but to deny that it's changed the industry radically is just ignorant.

Billy has been just as outspoken against the industry as he has been for it, and i think that that just speaks to the nature of it's inherent duality. And honestly, i'm still a little confused about this whole "consciousness revolution" thing you keep bringing up. I think Billy was speaking more towards a "love thy neighbor" kind of thing, rather than "kill the man, destroy the industry".

Again though, it's just a simple equation. Ubiquity=larger sales, a larger pool of profits. It's really not so disgusting, just ridiculous. If you've got a good message and you can make money at it, why not? There is absolutely no reason not to, as far as i can see. Billy hates the industry, he speaks against it all the time, but does he ever say "Captialism sucks, money is bad, i hate fame." No, not once has he ever said that. They're expanding their market and it's as simple as that. You're reading into this way, way too much.

[Osceana]

Uhm, I flew out for both of the final Chicago shows and they had plenty of "End" shirts for $20. I bought one at the United Center show, and wore it to the Metro show. I did not see any stands selling them or ANY merch for $100.

...and just like Wayne Arnold said, they were all over the web (including ebay) for a few yrs after for like $20.

They sold out at the United Center very fast, and after the Metro show was over you could really only find them on eBay. They were out of stock for a long time and your only resource was eBay, where they were paying lots and lots of cash for them.

[CrestfallenAlex]

First post: Agree, obviously.

Second post: I'm pretty sure I bought mine at Hot Topic (lol) not long after the band broke up...but I can't remember exactly when. You're sure they weren't available that holiday season, though?

[Peter]

this is the usual discussion...billy releases a record, everyone goes and buys it and gets all fan-ish for half a second, and then spends the next 2 - 5 years trashing it. At the end of that 5 year period, everyone realizes that they'll seem more revolutionary if they say they always liked it, and change their ways.

Give it five years and this record will be considered a cult classic amongst SP fans.

Me? I think it's a fucking cool record. Lots of heavy guitars and big drums. It's exactly what a rock record ought to be.

[Osceana]

this is the usual discussion...billy releases a record, everyone goes and buys it and gets all fan-ish for half a second, and then spends the next 2 - 5 years trashing it. At the end of that 5 year period, everyone realizes that they'll seem more revolutionary if they say they always liked it, and change their ways.

Give it five years and this record will be considered a cult classic amongst SP fans.

Me? I think it's a fucking cool record. Lots of heavy guitars and big drums. It's exactly what a rock record ought to be.

Fucking A.

I loved it when it came out, i love it now. "Pomp and Circumstances" is amazing, and it still breaks my heart.

Also, people were bitching when "Mellon Collie" came out.

[WorldView]

I actually remember when people were bitching about Mellon Collie. I even remember the SD bitching back in 93. My friend who got me into the pumpkins (he liked them since Gish and saw them on that tour) officially gave up on them when SD came out.

and yes I remember when Hot Topic sold the "End" shirts too. I don't remember them selling out at the United Center though, I bought mine at the end of the concert too (as I always do for EVERY concert I attend)

[Steven]

i don't think i've seen these "End" shirts...anyone got a picture of one?

[Geo]

Me? I think it's a fucking cool record. Lots of heavy guitars and big drums. It's exactly what a rock record ought to be.


i agree somewhat. i don't know if i'd go as far as you, but i really love it and have since it came out.


also, sk75 this one http://www.amazon.com/SMASHING-PUMPKINS-LAST-SHOW-T-SHIRT/dp/B000E7SWMW

[Asher]

this is the usual discussion...billy releases a record, everyone goes and buys it and gets all fan-ish for half a second, and then spends the next 2 - 5 years trashing it.

I was thinking today that I haven't listened to TFE for a couple of months. I've been more open to give the latest a chance with the Best Buy reissue (I finally bought the album yesterday- I had a burned Best Buy orange a month after it was released). Ma Belle and Stellar seem at home with TFE for whatever reason... probably similar vocals.

I doubt it will be something I'll consider classic, though. Title track to MSOTS it is not.

[Cheryl K]

I got an "End" shirt in like 2001 online. Can't remember where, but it definitely wasn't Ebay and it was only $15.

[Asher]

That Cinder Block site (store?) perhaps?

[Dovecoat]

Osceana... first of all, don't put words into my mouth. If you're gonna debate me, then debate me based on what I say. If you don't understand a point, then don't twist it to suit your argument. Thanks. OK, now...

The record label DEFINITELY pays for the tours. etc...

Actually, you're wrong (partially). Some record labels will offer support, usually limited. But all in all, they're in the business of selling records. That's it. They don't deal with publishing, licensing, touring... If they did (all of these are still very lucrative, btw), they wouldn't be in the financial trouble you're claiming they're in, now would they? Think about it logically for a second... if records aren't selling, but tours are booming (and touring makes more money than record sales), then they'd be the kings they were 15 years ago, now wouldn't they? Hell, they'd be gods.

Record labels are in the business of selling records, and they'll promote as needed. But tours are big and an entirely different business. They don't want to waste energy and resources on tours. Certain indie labels will do showcases of bands, some labels will give bands they're trying to break a little nudge. But when it comes to a band like the Pumpkins, they have safer and easier ways to bother with promotion. Labels will often require that a band go on tour for x amount of time, and hook them booking agents and sponsors... but that's where their involvement ends, with a few exceptions. Likewise, record labels generally can't legally recoup costs from tours, which is why new bands ONLY make money touring.

upset... Billy's... hypocritical.... We'd all like to pull the sheepskin over our eyes and believe that an artist can go out and fight the good fight, make music- not money, but it's not like that. etc...

As I've said several times, I have nothing against money or anyone making money... so once again, don't put words in my mouth. Likewise, your argument is moot.

But you're trying to convince me that if Billy turned into Britney Spears then you'd be okay with that, and i don't buy that.

I (in varying degrees) like Nelly Furtado, James Blunt, Paris Hilton, My Chemical Romance, Timbaland, etc... If you're accusing me of not liking pop money-whores (for being money-whores), you're sadly mistaken.

.....A band like the Pumpkins would not exist in this iteration without that money and financial scheming.

Agreed.

Your logic is akin to saying that a person who had 300$ in the depression was poor by today's standards.

No... there's something called "inflation". Keep up! Adjusted for inflation... the industry is better off now than it was in the 70s. Nothing like the Virgin Megastore even existed then, and chain record stores themselves were very limited (now, there are several major ones, and they're everywhere). So the fact that the Virgin Megastore closed means nothing. The 80s and 90s were the peak of the record industry... the business model created then couldn't work any better 10 years prior to its birth than 10 years after its downfall. So just because things appear to be on a decline (which they are) doesn't mean they're worse off than they were before the heyday.

The internet has all but killed the industry. It really has, almost literally become a singles market.... iTunes has done a lot of good, but to deny that it's changed the industry radically is just ignorant.

It hasn't killed the industry... only changed it. The industry needs to adapt or it WILL die... but it's not nearly about to die. As for stars teaming up... yes, it's like back in the day. Artists have always teamed up for singles. That's nothing new. Likewise, pop music was traditionally a singles market. The "album market" didn't start happening until the mid 60s, and didn't really take off until the 70s. If pop music becomes a singles market again, then it will have gone back to its origins, purity, and beautifully disposable birth-right. I'm hoping it does.

Billy has been just as outspoken against the industry as he has been for it, and i think that that just speaks to the nature of it's inherent duality.

Agreed. But in saying such a statement in response to what I've said, it seems you don't recognize the nature of that duality very well.

[Dovecoat]

I think Billy was speaking more towards a "love thy neighbor" kind of thing, rather than "kill the man, destroy the industry".

Again... don't put words in my mouth. I never said anything about destroying any industry (in fact, in many past posts, I've defended the record industry). I couldn't care less about the "industry". It's about respect, integrity, and their legacy... none of which "the industry" inherently jeopardizes. "Love thy neighbor" is over-simplifying it... but yes. That sense of awareness, consciousness, kindness, understanding, etc... is very much what Billy is talking about. But I really don't think being "unaccountable" (another of Billy's quotes) for their presentation and feeding the empty consumerism (ie: to "love thy neighbor", one must first notice one's neighbor) and lack of genuineness that Billy seems to be attacking is really supporting that.

If you've got a good message and you can make money at it, why not? There is absolutely no reason not to, as far as i can see.

Again... agreed. But Billy doesn't really have a message, now does he? And if he does, it's a message against what he's doing.

Billy hates the industry, he speaks against it all the time, but does he ever say "Captialism sucks, money is bad, i hate fame." No, not once has he ever said that. They're expanding their market and it's as simple as that. You're reading into this way, way too much.

Billy doesn't hate the industry. He seems to hate certain aspects of it. But not the entire industry. And obviously he loves fame, which is great... more people should. I hate faux-modesty. It's ugly. But expanding their market? No... they could've done that with just one release (the hype around it was enough). I don't think any new/casual fans are gonna care that different songs are on different releases, nor will they even follow the band enough to know there ARE multiple releases (many of my friends, for example)... they'll get whatever's cheapest at whatever store they go to. Only "troo" fans really care about that. They could have gotten the same from casual listeners by just releasing the one copy.

And I'm not reading too much into this... it's all perfectly obvious.

[Cool As Ice Cream]

iTunes has done a lot of good
what do you mean, good?

[James Yee-haw]

this is the usual discussion...billy releases a record, everyone goes and buys it and gets all fan-ish for half a second, and then spends the next 2 - 5 years trashing it. At the end of that 5 year period, everyone realizes that they'll seem more revolutionary if they say they always liked it, and change their ways.

Give it five years and this record will be considered a cult classic amongst SP fans.

Me? I think it's a fucking cool record. Lots of heavy guitars and big drums. It's exactly what a rock record ought to be.

:cheers:

well played good chap

[Geo]

I got an "End" shirt in like 2001 online. Can't remember where, but it definitely wasn't Ebay and it was only $15.


yeah, i think i got mine in summer 2001, and it was something like $15-20

[CrestfallenAlex]

I actually remember when people were bitching about Mellon Collie. I even remember the SD bitching back in 93. My friend who got me into the pumpkins (he liked them since Gish and saw them on that tour) officially gave up on them when SD came out.

That's pretty wild to think about. I often feel like everything they did through 1998 was pure, untouchable, irreproachable gold, and it was after that that the flaws started to show through. Is it a coincidence that 1999 was the year I began reading Smashing Pumpkins online message boards? Certainly not.

They could have gotten the same from casual listeners by just releasing the one copy.

This is where you're wrong, man. With a single release they don't get Target and Best Buy to do extra promotion for them. Nor do they get the buzz of the "re-release." I'm not saying the strategy is rock-solid, but that undeniably is the strategy.

[Wayne Arnold]

They don't deal with publishing, licensing, touring


This is all wrong. I'll elaborate more when I'm not so tired.

[CrestfallenAlex]

That was your 1,000th post and the 100th response to this thread. :yes:

[WorldView]

That's pretty wild to think about. I often feel like everything they did through 1998 was pure, untouchable, irreproachable gold, and it was after that that the flaws started to show through. Is it a coincidence that 1999 was the year I began reading Smashing Pumpkins online message boards? Certainly not.
The people I remember bitching were either kids in my high school at the time (91-95), concerts (I was at a 93 SD show, and two early MCIS shows), or running into fans at record stores. (which was easy to do back then)

Who's ready for funny storytime?? Well back when SD blew up in 93, we had this one friend who all of the sudden turned "alternative" ...which back then was a term that could be used quite loosely. Anyways, he started getting into all of the bands at the time so my friends and I made up a fictional band called the "Jolly Ranchers" to mess with him...kind of a joke name to poke fun at all of the Lemonheads/Smashing Pumpkins/Blind Melon/Soup Dragons/Chilli Peppers etc..
Well anyways we would talk about how we went to the Jolly Ranchers show, got their new CD, got the new magazine with them in it, etc...So one day this poser kid was talking to this other kid who worked at the record store explaining all of the different bands that he's into..and of course one of the bands he spurted out was Jolly Ranchers. The record store kid was like. "Who the fuck are the Jolly Ranchers???"

One of those hilarious, you had to be there things :)

[Wayne Arnold]

This is all wrong. I'll elaborate more when I'm not so tired.


Ok...almost every label will give artists some money towards touring. Some new contracts allow labels to make money off the tours, but most contracts provide the artist with money and then they take it back from record sales.

Some major labels (EMI) are publishing companies too. BMG owns their own publishing, and Sony is now collecting alot of their own publishing. The ones that don't own the publishing work hand in hand with publishers due to licensing...which leads me to licensing.

Every label has a licensing department. Why? because publishing is only half of licensing. To license a song you must get the rights to both the song and the recording of the song. The label owns the masters, the publishing owns the song. Labels make a ton of money from licensing, alot of albums will make alot more money from licensing than they do sales.

[Wayne Arnold]

That was your 1,000th post and the 100th response to this thread. :yes:


Fuck, I didn't even get to celebrate. I should have made a thread for my 1,000th post in which everyone gets to say what they love about me. That way I'd feel better about the time I've wasted on here to accumulate 1,000 posts.

[Drevpile]

amongst other things i love the fact that you actually know what you're talking about when it comes to such things as publishing, licensing, touring :)

[CrestfallenAlex]

Fuck, I didn't even get to celebrate. I should have made a thread for my 1,000th post in which everyone gets to say what they love about me. That way I'd feel better about the time I've wasted on here to accumulate 1,000 posts.

I for one have appreciated and enjoyed it. Cheers. :beer:

[Wayne Arnold]

Thanks everyone (all two of you), you're too kind.

[Tabris]

The best excuse I've heard so far is "Billy doesn't care either way", which doesn't sit well with me. For an artist to be that apathetic about how their work is presented and how their fans are exploited is disgusting to me. It's just lazy. Especially for an album attacking over-exploitation/consumerism and inciting a "consciousness revolution". It just seems very hypocritical at worst and ironic at best.

And I think that's what many defenders fail to notice... Fine, it's "business", whatever. But Billy is vehemently attacking the "it's just business" mentality with Zeitgeist. So if we're stupid for caring, then Billy's also stupid for caring, and even more stupid for being a hypocrite about it.
word.

[Tabris]

Artists, especially big artists, make very little money on merchandise.

That is patently untrue. Where the fuck did you get that information?

You act like these record execs are doing a fucking charity to the world by making sure the 'reissue, repackage, repackage' is alive and well, and that no money is to be made. This is the most crass and disheartening defense of music-industry exploitation I've heard in a long while.

[Osceana]

That is patently untrue. Where the fuck did you get that information?

You act like these record execs are doing a fucking charity to the world by making sure the 'reissue, repackage, repackage' is alive and well, and that no money is to be made. This is the most crass and disheartening defense of music-industry exploitation I've heard in a long while.

How old are you again? And when was the last time you screen printed a shirt for a band that sold out of merchandise every night? I rest my fucking case.

And again, who are they exploiting? Can someone PLEASE explain this to me? If people are getting taken for their money that's their fault, or, they want to buy it (as i outlined earlier). It's not as if these record execs are robbing stagecoaches.

Also, can you please outline to me the logic in this sentence:


You act like these record execs are doing a fucking charity to the world by making sure the 'reissue, repackage, repackage' is alive and well, and that no money is to be made.

Have i not repeatedly said that UBIQUITY=MORE SALES???

I'm sorry Hyden, but this is the most crass and disheartening offense i've seen here on Blamo in a while.

MORE SALES = MONEY MADE. Does that make sense to you?

[Osceana]

on record labels, tours, and licensing
Yeah, you know, i don't know where Dovecoat is getting his info from, but it's almost unheard of for a band to not get some money from their label for a tour. The only time i've ever heard of it, it was being related to me in the most aggravated of tones. And a label not having anything to do with licensing is beyond ridiculous.

stuff
Man, you're really starting to take us into rather arcane territory here. What you're arguing now crosses over into philosophical realms.

I can guarantee you that Billy has a message. If you honestly, sincerely think that they do not then you have either been asleep or just not paying attention, and if that's the case then i hardly think you're in a position to put words into Billy's mouth or make any kind of inferences at all to his or the band's intentions.

To address the question of what their message is, and to simultaneously dispel the many outlandish suspicions regarding their exploits, i would quote him directly in regards to politics:

"It's like a simple emphasis....if you emphasize God/truth/Love you don't need to emphasize politics. So for me politics is for chumps; it's for people who need to know who won the 2nd race, you know; which horse came in first.... Nobody gives a shit really. They act like they do, but it all comes down to what they wanna hear. But if you talk about real things, then that seems to defeat everything."

To reduce Billy and the band's message to mere consumerism is beyond misguided. If you want to talk math and figures, then that's your own, limited prerogative and that does not mean that that is all the Pumpkins are interested in. I do agree with you though, feeding avarice can be a terrible thing, however i nonetheless think your persecution of the Pumpkins for this "hypocrisy" is a little misguided, and moreover, a little late. The band had more than enough money once they released "Mellon Collie and the Infinite Sadness", so i guess that real question is: Why don't you hate the band for raking in lots of money since then when they clearly didn't need it? Also, as i've said earlier, they have released the "Today" single (as well as many other singles such as "Perfect") numerous times. So i guess the bottom line here is that you have to have some kind of solidarity in your convictions. If you really find such behavior despicable and ethically reprehensible, then why do you even bother with the band at all at this point?

I understand the duality between business and art quite well, but i'm starting to think that you don't. The best you can do is create art that you love and hope that it sells. How that differs at all from what the Pumpkins have done here is beyond me. Furthermore it's not like this is the first time the band has done something like this. Maybe this is just your first time noticing this, but don't blame them for your ignorance. You sound like Sharon Osborne, reproaching them for wearing dresses in 2000 when they were doing that back in '92 and '93.

This is not a new business model, it's existed for years, and this very band has been using it for some time now. Your arbitrary discernment of just when enough is enough is a personal issue and one that you have to reconcile for yourself. This is the band, this is what they do, and it's probably going to be what they continue to do. If anything, you yourself have supported, funded, and personally endorsed the Pumpkins and this exact kind of business model through your advocacy of the Pumpkins in the past. So i think that makes your entire point moot, as this has simply become a clean cut case of the pot calling the kettle black.

Also, for the record, Billy does hate the recording industry. And if you were to challenge him on it i'm sure he'd icily defend that claim of mine. There's a Youtube video where he specifically says, "I hate hate hate hate hate the music industry, i do." He hates it, but he deals with, because it's the best way to do things right now. If you think different then start a band, go from rags to riches, have critics call you shit after you've single-handedly redefined the genre TWICE, have your closest friends betray you and your very best friend die (yes, Jimmy has actually died before), reform the band, release an album that sells because you know you have to prove something, and THEN start talking about what's the best way to do things.

Do you know why cereal boxes have bright colors on them? Because it attracts attention, it increases sales. That's why businesses give themselves and their mascots/icons facelifts every few years, it lets you know that they are still current, still relevant. I am not going to buy a product with an outdated image on it....i would only do that if i truly believed in the item and had had prior experience and faith in it.

....Are you starting to see where this is going?

[Osceana]

what do you mean, good?

I remember hearing somewhere that artists are actually seeing more money as a result of the .99 cent/song deal. Whether or not that's true, it is, for sure, keeping the music market afloat. It's sort of like the record industry was able to take the piracy issue and use it to their advantage. Prior to iTunes there was really no real way to uniformly buy/share/manage music online. There were things out there that attempted to do that, but Apple really pioneered something there. Also, instead of me having to go out and search all over town for an album, i am now able to just sit down at my computer and search for it, find it, and enjoy it within the span of a few minutes (in most cases- it's rare for them not to have something unless it's really underground). It's brought a lot of exposure to artists and made some more accessible. For example, a lot of the bands/music i enjoy are from other countries such as Brasil and España....before iTunes getting that music was beyond frustrating. Now it's easy, and instead of paying huge, exorbitant fees for it, i just pay .99 cents.

Also, if i don't want to buy an entire album i can just buy one song or a few songs. Singles were never supposed to be as much as the fucking album (stupid record execs), now they're not! :D

[marquiSP]

this is the usual discussion...billy releases a record, everyone goes and buys it and gets all fan-ish for half a second, and then spends the next 2 - 5 years trashing it. At the end of that 5 year period, everyone realizes that they'll seem more revolutionary if they say they always liked it, and change their ways.

Give it five years and this record will be considered a cult classic amongst SP fans.

Me? I think it's a fucking cool record. Lots of heavy guitars and big drums. It's exactly what a rock record ought to be.

Amen. It's like how people who now bash Zeitgeist praise Machina. Machina is a safe choice to praise now; it's their least successful album before Zeitgeist, so they don't look like a bandwagon SD/MCIS fan, it's arty and pretentious, so liking it makes them look smart, and it has a few rocking songs on it, so they don't look like an emo pussy. Plus, Machina is almost universally detested, so liking it makes them look different and ahead of the curve.

I agree that in time, more people will appreciate the Zeit for what it is: a straight up slamming rock record with great heavy guitars and awesome drums. It doesn't reinvent the wheel, but it's not supposed to. It's just here to rock.

[sotherbee]

...

He came back!

http://i227.photobucket.com/albums/dd139/sotherbee/hyden2.jpg

[Cheryl K]

It doesn't reinvent the wheel, but it's not supposed to. It's just here to rock.

Duh. And I don't get why people haven't accepted this.

[Geo]

He came back!

http://i227.photobucket.com/albums/dd139/sotherbee/hyden2.jpg

hehehe, i love that picture.

[selection7]

And what point is that?
Come on man. Don't be dishonest.


Um... actually, I pointed out that they wouldn't make any money off new tab books. But they are, however, making money off new copies of Zeitgeist. Which in itself is irrelevant, because making money is fine... good for them. But not in such a sleazy way.
No. In fact, I pointed out to you why tab books would make much more money. Keep in mind, tab books are just one example of the many ways they could bleed diehards dry but don't bother because that's not where the real money is.


You'd be surprised. And keep in mind, this album was released worldwide.
I think you're the one who'd be suprised. ...And so are tab books. Try again.


No... I only bought one copy. But you just proved *my* point... their most devout/collector fans are "nothing to them", and they've made that quite clear. I find that disgusting.Incorrect. Your point was primarily that the multiple album bit is a way to leach more money off diehard fans, and to that end, you've not supported it. Besides, Billy does care about you (and the suits donn't). He just doesn't care about your buying potential with respect to extra versions of Zeitgeist or any other hardcore only purshasing habits. That's the full connotation of what I meant by "they don't care about you", not the connotation you ran with. Negative brownie points by the way for trying to spin what your original message was and what "don't care about you" referred to. You'll find I'm not as easily confused as others you're used to debating with. But that makes it more fun for you doesn't it?


So tab books are profitable. That's what I said. So again, how am I proving your point?
See my past post. No reason to repeat it. It's still there.


But the thing is, Billy DOES care. Or at least he's said he does. He's made impassioned points of it. Which is the basis of MY point... Billy cares, yet people like you say other fans are stupid for caring. It's just a cop-out to valid arguments.
I technically never called you stupid for caring (and I wouldn't). Just stupid for spewing vitriol at Billy for it. I don't like some of the SP related decisions that have been made over the years either. Releasing this many Zeitgeist's IS ridiculous, but that's all it is.

And you're upset that it's giving the shaft to independent record stores? Do you realise how every other aspect plays into that?
??

[Cool As Ice Cream]

He came back!
yes he did.

he never cared enough to listen to the new sp album once, but he wants to know what we think about it.

way to go, weiner grossman! way to go!

[jack-o-lantern]

stop using that fucking smiley you pompous shit stain!

That's not a nice thing to say. Screw nice. Fuck you too moron. :-D

[marquiSP]

As far as the "multiple versions" thing, Billy made a remark at the Voodoo show that he didn't care if people bought the album, he just wanted them to listen to it. He joked about d/ling while looking at porn and whatnot, basically saying that however people choose to obtain Zeitgeist doesn't matter as long as they listen. I know this is just some random comment on stage, but, for what it's worth, there it is...

[mc_festus]

That's not a nice thing to say. Screw nice. Fuck you too moron. :-D

wow, and it only took you two weeks to retort :-D

[marquiSP]

wow, and it only took you two weeks to retort :-D

Burn!