Ringo Smith (Elliott Starr related)

[British_Rockstar]

I've been thinking about posting this for months now. Somewhere online (on Sweetadeline?) I read about Elliott's taste for the Beatles influencing him. It mentions his debt to George, John and Paul (the way I see it, it's as if George - with his own spritual and physical voice - had Paul's gift for melody and John's angst and lyricism and then threw all their instrument playing abilities in a blender).

But what about Ringo? I don't know if you've noticed but the drumming on all of Elliott's records is very Ringo-esque. VERY. It just kind of succumbs to the melody and keeps up a steady beat and tempo. It's also full of crazy-ass fills. It's like the drumming really knows how to take direction and that is the most Ringo-esque quality of all.

[kuta]

the drums on speed trials get me everytime. :yes::yes::yes: :drums:

[runnersdialzero]

Elliott was sort of a sloppy drummer, but it worked well most of the time. Namely on Basement and Either/Or. I know he didn't drum on every song on XO or Figure 8, but I think his "tighter" work on those records was probably the results of doing several takes. I think he even stated how most of the stuff on Basement was only done in one or two takes.

But like I said, it works well most of the time.

As far as a Beatles influence, sure, but I dunno about the lengths of which the initial poster talked. You speak as if he simply took elements of each of the Beatles for his own style, and I'm sure there was a lot more to it than that.

[E Smith Rock]

I don't know anything about Ringo, so I can't comment on the actual purpose of the thread. But my favourite drums from Elliott are on Coast to Coast and See You In Heaven.
Also, John wrote better melodies(IMO) Like "Saw Her Standing There" "Strawberry Fields"
"I am the Walrus"

I think this showed especially after they broke up. "Jealous Guy" "Beautiful Boy" "Watching the Wheels", these songs kill anything I've ever heard by Wings. In fact, I don't like Wings much at all.

[MedicalBravado]

I
Also, John wrote better melodies(IMO) Like "Saw Her Standing There" "Strawberry Fields"
"I am the Walrus"

I think this showed especially after they broke up. "Jealous Guy" "Beautiful Boy" "Watching the Wheels", these songs kill anything I've ever heard by Wings. In fact, I don't like Wings much at all.

word

[Hummingbird]

i love the drums on the US bside version of a distorted reality is now a necessity to be free and also on from a poison well.

and i agree that elliott's drumming style has many similarities to ringo's!

[Junk Bond Sam]

Elliott didnt actually play the drums on Coast to Coast.

That song has two drummers on it.... Steven Drodz from The Flaming Lips and Aaron Sperske.

Aaron Sperske also played the drums on Pretty (ugly before) and Fritz Michaud played the drums on Kings Crossing.

[robot hand]

shooting star.
now there's some fucked up drumming!

[British_Rockstar]

I don't know anything about Ringo, so I can't comment on the actual purpose of the thread. But my favourite drums from Elliott are on Coast to Coast and See You In Heaven.
Also, John wrote better melodies(IMO) Like "Saw Her Standing There" "Strawberry Fields"
"I am the Walrus"

I think this showed especially after they broke up. "Jealous Guy" "Beautiful Boy" "Watching the Wheels", these songs kill anything I've ever heard by Wings. In fact, I don't like Wings much at all.

I think you're missing the whole point of the Walrus. It's totally NOT a melody driven song. Most of John's songs weren't - Come Together's another great example. His music worked on hooks and lyrics. Paul was more of the Golden Slumbers - And I Love Her melodiousness.

Elliott didn't play drums on a lot of songs, but as I said there's some very Ringo-esque drumming on his records. I don't think Elliott lifted anything from each Beatle as one poster thought I suggested - it's just that his music comes out that way ad yet is still so ELLIOTT SMITH original. That's the great thing about the Beatles - they invite originality.

[Junk Bond Sam]

John's music wasnt melody driven? I think his melodies were some of the most interesting out of all the Beatles music.

Across The Universe
Julia
Happines is a warm gun
Dear prudence
I'm so tired
Sexie Sadie
A day in the life
Lucy in the sky
I'm only sleeping
Norwegian Wood
Glass Onion
Girl
Strawberry Fields

All those songs are carried by some awesome melodies.

[British_Rockstar]

I'm just saying John could always do more with less.
That was his genius. He and Paul were different type of writers. Paul couldn't make a John song and John couldn't make a Paul song.

I mean, well, duh, John was a great songwriter and obviously songs (more so in his day than in ours sadly) need melodies. But I mean if you take a song like Strawberry Fields, Lucy in the sky you have songs that survive mainly through the overlaying of the psychedelic kitchen sink. Which is a shame in the case of Strawberry Fields because it was a beautiful song in its original form, although it might not be as famous if it weren't for the arrangement. Then songs like Glass Onion and Happiness is a Warm Gun are just kind of rock rehashes that are great for their lyrics. Dear Prudence and Julia? Beautiful wispy ballads that are, come to think of it, the same song. He used that guitar pattern even into his slo career. But yeah, he does have some great original melodies too. I'm just saying Paul had more - strip everything off the songs (even memory of the lyrics) and, as John himself said, you're not gonna be humming the Walrus.

[aural near]

where can I find the original Strawberry Fields?

[blunderful]

shooting star.
now there's some fucked up drumming!

and that's why i love it! it goes so well with the song. i can't imagine the song with clean drumming

[E Smith Rock]

Elliott didnt actually play the drums on Coast to Coast.

.

but it is my favourite drum track in any of his songs. Just back and forth and so loud and violent, when hes singing "If you can't help it then just, leave it alone, leave it alone, leave it alone................just forget it"then that guitar solo is unbelievable as well.

[E Smith Rock]

[QUOTE=British_Rockstar;2462066]I think you're missing the whole point of the Walrus. It's totally NOT a melody driven song. QUOTE]

"living is easy with eyes closed, misunderstanding all you see"-that part has a just a tad bit of melody. I don't see how I can think the song has amazing melody and I'm "missing a point" its not like they wrote the song then John was like "I hope people realize that this isnt a melody driven song if they love the melody, wow, they just don't know music"

I think John's melodies are lightyears better then Paul's. This is my opinion and preference but alot of Paul's songs get cheesy to me, like I can get sick of them. This doesn't happend with many of Lennon's for me.

Obviously Blackbird and Revolution are examples of Paul songs that wont get old to me, but I just think John has so many more timeless songs.

[E Smith Rock]

where can I find the original Strawberry Fields?

its on "Love" and its only instrumental for half of it.

[robot hand]

and that's why i love it! it goes so well with the song. i can't imagine the song with clean drumming

yar, it wouldn't quite be the tour de force that it ended up being :yes:

[robot hand]

i think people (these days) tend to forget how many fucking incredible songs paul has.
after listening to them for freckin' forever, i stopped being so astounded by lennons inventiveness and that's when it occurred to me that paul was brilliant beyond belief in ways that lennon wasn't.

post beatles?

* see live and let die!

just listen to how much is going on in that song and how cohesively all the differing parts ended up matching each other so well :yes:

[aural near]

I love tape manipulated drumming. Thats what makes shooting star so good.

[MrGoldAndMrMud]

I always thought of John as the groovy one and Paul as the melodic one, even though John wrote amazing melodies too. Compared to each other though, I think John was more into the groove.

[RyanNath]

What is Tape Manipulated drumming?

[robot hand]

What is Tape Manipulated drumming?

:drums:

[Junk Bond Sam]

Has anybody heard the Paul Mcartney and Elvis Costello sessions?

And does anybody want to trade a send space Mccartney unplugged link for it?

[aural near]

What is Tape Manipulated drumming?

normal drumming, recorded onto magnetic tape. the tape is scratched, stretched, crinkled, etc. to give the music on the tape a wierd sound. This technique was used on shooting star.

[robot hand]

normal drumming, recorded onto magnetic tape. the tape is scratched, stretched, crinkled, etc. to give the music on the tape a wierd sound. This technique was used on shooting star.

can you just "hear" it or did you read that somewhere?

[aural near]

I've used the technique myself. Although no where near as subtely. I also happen to know that it was used on shooting star. I'm guessing it was the drums due to the way they sound and my knowledge of what tape-buggery sounds like.

[blunar/2^k]

John -> horizontal, Paul -> vertical, as some author Ianperson said it, and Wallace about it me told.

I may be able to dig up an earlier version of "Strawberry Fields" from one of the Anthologies, but I dare say it holdsn't up to the finished prod, so that makes it feel slightly less worth my time to do so.

[aural near]

for what its worth, I'd appriciate it. Its up to you though. You don't have to.

[British_Rockstar]

I always thought of John as the groovy one and Paul as the melodic one, even though John wrote amazing melodies too. Compared to each other though, I think John was more into the groove.

That's all I was trying to say. There's a difference between a melody as part of a song and a melody as the BASIS of a song. Paul always started with the melody and created the lyrics while John started with the lyrics and worked through the melody. Which also made John groovier. I'm not going to say Paul was better than John or John was better than Paul but Paul definitely had more natural inborn musical talent. He's the one with perfect pitch and the ability to learn an instrument much quicker. But that's neither here nor there, I suppose. Because having more musical talent is to being a great songwriter what mathematical ability is to being a great physicist and as we all know from history Albert Einstein was a dunce when it came to math, yet he was arguably the greatest physicist of the 20th Century. And

[kim]

That's all I was trying to say. There's a difference between a melody as part of a song and a melody as the BASIS of a song. Paul always started with the melody and created the lyrics while John started with the lyrics and worked through the melody. Which also made John groovier. I'm not going to say Paul was better than John or John was better than Paul but Paul definitely had more natural inborn musical talent. He's the one with perfect pitch and the ability to learn an instrument much quicker. But that's neither here nor there, I suppose. Because having more musical talent is to being a great songwriter what mathematical ability is to being a great physicist and as we all know from history Albert Einstein was a dunce when it came to math, yet he was arguably the greatest physicist of the 20th Century. And

oh where do i even start? einstein failed high school math, yeah, but he wasn't exactly a mathematical dunce.

"paul always started with the melody" and "john always started with the lyrics" that's just crap. life ain't that simple. the beatles weren't that simple; that's why they're the greatest band of all time.

people think that john was "cooler" because he's the one who's been dead for 27 years; no other reason. the advantage of being dead is you don't have to make mistakes.

[blunar/2^k]

for what its worth, I'd appriciate it. Its up to you though. You don't have to.
According to and raped from The Beatles Anthology 2, Disc Two:
"Strawberry Fields Forever [Demo Sequence]" (http://jerry.cleedo.com/strawberry_fields/sff_demo.mp3)
"Strawberry Fields Forever [Take 1]" (http://jerry.cleedo.com/strawberry_fields/sff_take1.mp3)
"Strawberry Fields Forever [Take 7 & Edit Piece]" (http://jerry.cleedo.com/strawberry_fields/sff_take7_edit.mp3)

A pirate's life for me, but don't make your living off the High C's Sieze, kidtz.
John had the coolest voice in the whole throat.

[Junk Bond Sam]

I still don’t get how you can say Paul was the melodic one and John was the rhythm or groove guy. They both had groove and melody in their songs, some more so than others. Helter Skelter comes to mind as a Paul song driven more by rhythm than melody.

I would agree that they had a different style to their melodies but like the guy above me said it isn’t just black and white. I don’t hear John as being the groove guy and Paul being the melodic guy. They were both masters of all the elements in songwriting, which is why their music is loved by so many people. To each his own I guess.

[British_Rockstar]

oh where do i even start? einstein failed high school math, yeah, but he wasn't exactly a mathematical dunce.


he also had to have his first wife check the math on every paper he wrote to make sure he didn't fudge the numbers - including the papers on relativity.

edit: let me just point out that it wasn't exactly "high school" math either, as in Germany the system is and was fairly different to what we're used to. Math greatly interested him and it was his major field of study (he got into the math program in Zurich, didn't he?), but he just wasn't didn't have that ability to multiply great numbers in his head or the patience to sit through pages of proofs and calculus (with an abacus no less) that some others may have had, but that didn't stop him from being the better scientist. That's what I'm saying about John - he got by with honesty, soul and wit more than just musical talent, of which he obviously had quite a bit as well. Interestingly, John applied this to many other things - his visual as well as literary art, while Paul while having more talent musically could really only ever apply his specific gifts to music. But fine I'll give some lip service to the notion that people are complicated. "you won't see me" I suppose. It is true anyhow.

edit edit: oh, and I agree with George Martin that John should have kept Strwbs in its earliest form (well, maybe second earliest, I believe there's an even earlier one than shown on the anthology). His voice is so beautiful. But I also believe deeply that if he had there would have been no hullabaloo about the whole thing and it would have been this really low-key song only true fans would discover and pass into legend. Plus, it would lend itself to countless inspired covers by daring young indie artists. As it is, not many people cover Strawbs without making it cheesy. The turning point was when he decided to start with the chorus. He should have kept the first verse as the intro.

[donnyidk]

Paul was the melodic one. yes John had some cool melodies (the basic melody of Nowhere Man for example makes that clear) but compared to Paul...c'mon! Let It Be, Yesterday, Martha My Dear, Penny Lane - these are songs that fundamentally are melodies.
John's skill doesn't depend on melody (though it uses melody sure) but Paul's does. most Lennon songs sound melodic maybe, but without their arrangement, lyrics, etc. they're pretty flat (sing "words are flowing out like endless" - then stop. was that melodic?)
that's not to say they're less good as songs or anything, they're just different. usually Paul's lyrics are utter faff, so...

but that's the stereotype. and it's not always true.
it's ok putting people in boxes, just don't lock them in.

[E Smith Rock]

Paul was the melodic one. yes John had some cool melodies (the basic melody of Nowhere Man for example makes that clear) but compared to Paul...c'mon! Let It Be, Yesterday, Martha My Dear, Penny Lane - these are songs that fundamentally are melodies.
.

this is a prime example of why this subject is purely based on opinion. Let it Be, Yesterday, Penny Lane, these are some of the songs that I think get cheesy, and I don't think if John wrote Lyrics over them they would be timeless to me. I don't know if this has anything to do with theory, but the fact is, musical theory has nothing to do with how good a song sounds, it is purely in the value of the song.

I prefer the melody of "Saw her Standing There" "I am the Walrus" "Beautiful Boy" "Watching The Wheels(ACOUSTIC OH MY GOD)" "Jealous Guy" "Strawbery Fields" to anything I've ever heard by Paul, besides Blackbird.

I'm not saying that people can't prefer Paul's melodies, but I am saying that you shouldn't try and make a distinction between the two and say "outside of opinion, Paul's melodies are better" its all relative there is nothing outside of any one persons opinion. We don't have that capability.

For example, there are people who will drive in their car alone, playing "drop it like its hot" by Snoop Dog and love it. And say "drop it likes it hot, drop it likes hot" and just love it, the way it sounds. The melody in that sound is Pharrels mouth.

My favourite melodies are found in Elliotts music and Hip Hop beats that loop classical music with amazing drum loops, thats just me, I'm not trying to make a distinction that pushes my opinion on you though, it's just the way it is for me.

[donnyidk]

this is a prime example of why this subject is purely based on opinion. Let it Be, Yesterday, Penny Lane, these are some of the songs that I think get cheesy, and I don't think if John wrote Lyrics over them they would be timeless to me. I don't know if this has anything to do with theory, but the fact is, musical theory has nothing to do with how good a song sounds, it is purely in the value of the song.

I prefer the melody of "Saw her Standing There" "I am the Walrus" "Beautiful Boy" "Watching The Wheels(ACOUSTIC OH MY GOD)" "Jealous Guy" "Strawbery Fields" to anything I've ever heard by Paul, besides Blackbird.

I'm not saying that people can't prefer Paul's melodies, but I am saying that you shouldn't try and make a distinction between the two and say "outside of opinion, Paul's melodies are better" its all relative there is nothing outside of any one persons opinion. We don't have that capability.

For example, there are people who will drive in their car alone, playing "drop it like its hot" by Snoop Dog and love it. And say "drop it likes it hot, drop it likes hot" and just love it, the way it sounds. The melody in that sound is Pharrels mouth.

My favourite melodies are found in Elliotts music and Hip Hop beats that loop classical music with amazing drum loops, thats just me, I'm not trying to make a distinction that pushes my opinion on you though, it's just the way it is for me.

oh i'm not saying they're more enjoyable melodically or anything, that is just preference. i'm just saying there's more melody in them from an objective point of view. take a song like I Am The Walrus - there's no distinctive melody there as such. it's one note mostly. but a song like Yesterday is using a larger number of notes in the scale, is exploring different patterns between these notes, is using motifs and sequences within the notes themselves in a way that I Am The Walrus doesn't.

this isn't stating preference, i usually prefer John's songs myself. but i think it's almost bald fact that Paul often has more interesting, more developed, more complex and musical melodies than John does.

[robot hand]

Paul was the melodic one. yes John had some cool melodies (the basic melody of Nowhere Man for example makes that clear) but compared to Paul...c'mon! Let It Be, Yesterday, Martha My Dear, Penny Lane - these are songs that fundamentally are melodies.
John's skill doesn't depend on melody (though it uses melody sure) but Paul's does. most Lennon songs sound melodic maybe, but without their arrangement, lyrics, etc. they're pretty flat (sing "words are flowing out like endless" - then stop. was that melodic?)
that's not to say they're less good as songs or anything, they're just different. usually Paul's lyrics are utter faff, so...

but that's the stereotype. and it's not always true.
it's ok putting people in boxes, just don't lock them in.

i think paul had some great lyrics..

yesterday, she came in through the bathroom window, blackbird, eleanor rigby, hello goodbye, for no one, penny lane.. oh man, the "somewhere in the black hills.." part of rocky raccoon never ceases to make me smirk.. rocky raccoon lyrics ftw!
they're often not as surreal, quirky or clever as johns, but then again, in this whole wide world, who's are?!
pauls lyrics serve the feel of the compositions they sit with almost every time. :yes:

[British_Rockstar]

Paul was the melodic one. yes John had some cool melodies (the basic melody of Nowhere Man for example makes that clear) but compared to Paul...c'mon! Let It Be, Yesterday, Martha My Dear, Penny Lane - these are songs that fundamentally are melodies.
John's skill doesn't depend on melody (though it uses melody sure) but Paul's does. most Lennon songs sound melodic maybe, but without their arrangement, lyrics, etc. they're pretty flat (sing "words are flowing out like endless" - then stop. was that melodic?)
that's not to say they're less good as songs or anything, they're just different. usually Paul's lyrics are utter faff, so...

but that's the stereotype. and it's not always true.
it's ok putting people in boxes, just don't lock them in.

I just thought I'd reprint your posts because you are 100% correct. You are right on the motherfucking ball.

Esmith rocks thinks music theory has nothing to do with how good a song sounds and he is partly right (as opposed to your 100% right). I mean if we were to judge purely on the standards that get one into a conservatory, SURE, Paul would be the man (John would have to apply two or three times and probably would have gotten in for studio arts anyway) but as it is pop music a whole lot more goes on than just theory. Granted. But why do you keep bringing up the Walrus, Esmith?

disclaimer: I freaking love "I Am The Walrus." The song friggin changed my life.
Now onto it:
I AM HE AS YOU ARE ME AS YOU ARE WE AND WE ARE...

that's two freaking notes, man! And then ad nauseum. It may be hard tostrip it of its lyrics, but just try. Now hum it. It's flat. How does that even compare to "And I Love Her?" How does it even get pegged as a song with a good melody?

[robot hand]

I've used the technique myself. Although no where near as subtely. I also happen to know that it was used on shooting star. I'm guessing it was the drums due to the way they sound and my knowledge of what tape-buggery sounds like.

interesting.. i'd like to be able to try that myself one of these days.
do you think the cymbals (partly) sound that way because of the tape manipulation?

[Junk Bond Sam]

"I AM HE AS YOU ARE HE AS YOU ARE ME AND WE ARE" :cool:

[robot hand]

every line in that song is incredibly inspired and surrealistically vivid.. like you could imagine a whole story based on just one of them :O

[Junk Bond Sam]

every line in that song is incredibly inspired and surrealistically vivid.. like you could imagine a whole story based on just one of them :O

I love the sound of that song, like the whole song is this trippy world.

[robot hand]

such strange construction :O

those voice samples are what gives me the creeps..
hazy 60's englishness!

[British_Rockstar]

references to Shakespeare and Batman?