runnersdialzero bitching about trivial stuff pt.943 - John Darnielle quote, again.

[runnersdialzero]

I brought this up in an older thread, and it STILL irks me.

"Anyone who can’t write 10 songs in a year isn’t a songwriter,anyone who can’t write 20 isn’t working hard enough" - John Darnielle of the Mountain Goats

In my opinion, the only way to really take this is with a total quantity over quality mentality, which is just bullshit in my opinion. There is definitely a place in music for spontaneity, however, I really don't think it should be the ONLY way to approach songwriting. Sometimes taking more than a year really benefits the song. Sometimes taking SEVERAL years benefits the songs. And yes, I realize that sometimes overdoing a song for years can make it worse. But either way, I think sitting on a song for a while that seems "finished" is always a good idea, as once the excitement wears off you might realize it sucks. Or it may be better than you ever thought. But anyways...

In this older thread, I got a lot of complaints and people more so agreeing with Mr.Darnielle than myself. The most common things I read were things like:

The Beatles put out two albums a year, on average.
Elliott wrote prolifically, and put out two of his highlight albums, Either/Or and XO within the space of one year.
Pet Sounds didn't take long at all to be finished.

My argument? You're talking about Elliott Smith, the Beach Boys, and above all, you're talking about the frigging Beatles, here.You're talking about records that were put out roughly 40 years ago when there was still plenty of room to pioneer and do things that had never been done before. Not every musician/songwriter can be both prolific and good.

I say that with no disrespect to any one musician, because honestly the only persons creative process I know from point A to point wheneveritsdone is my own. My philosophy is to let a song write itself. I've never sat down and written anything, I've had to wait for it to finish itself out. Sometimes it takes a few months, sometimes it takes a few years. And even then, I let it SIT. I record it, I examine it, and I give and take what I want and possibly throw it away all together or shelve it and scrap it for parts.

But essentially, what I'm saying here is... not everyone can be the Beatles or the Beach Boys or Elliott. Other than those two examples, I'm extremely hard pressed to think of anyone who puts out an extremely solid and well put together album every year and then STILL have good outtakes, b-sides, etc. Hell, these days I'm hard pressed to find an album that's even half good. There are plenty of artists I've seen who are absolutely prolific but seemingly couldn't put out a good album, couldn't put out a good EP even, to save their lives.

And even Elliott and the Beatles had their weaker moments (I can't speak about the Beach Boys as I'm not very familiar with most of their work).

I'm not telling anyone what to do here, don't get me wrong. I'm simply stating things from my point of view and this is all my opinions. Nothing right, nothing wrong, just opinions.

Discus(s).

[marcusmo]

i can't really think of anything worthwhile to contribute, but i'd have to say i agree with you... i don't think there's any way to measure a songwriter

[runnersdialzero]

i can't really think of anything worthwhile to contribute, but i'd have to say i agree with you... i don't think there's any way to measure a songwriter

YES, thank you, something else I forgot to say as sort of a "disclaimer". There is absolutely no wrong or right way to write a song, but still... the quote, again, just seems to have more of a quantity over quality mentality, as I said.

Thanks.

[Liquid Sunshine]

yes I see what you mean, the problem is is that nobody has a point of reference I guess, since song writing isn't the same for any two people.

Its interesting what you said about writing songs over time, how you will let the song write itself, coz I've never done that. I've always sat down at piano with my guitar or whatever and started playing and would try to write the whole song if possible, later I may rework it, but chord changes and melodies don't really just pop into my head, so i need to be with an instrument to experiment and work a song :\ your songs are probably better because of it.

[meepmeep]

maybe you should write a song about it :smelly: :smelly:

[Liquid Sunshine]

I did, it goes alil something likea this:

sky rockets in flight,
afternoon delighhththhthhhhhttttt

:\

[marcusmo]

im the same way, mine just evolve even if i forget them... they always seem to come back up if they're worth it

[arnold_layne]

i can't really think of anything worthwhile to contribute, but i'd have to say i agree with you... i don't think there's any way to measure a songwriter

Oh but there is...and I think you know what I'm talking about.

[marcusmo]

lol thank you friend

[arnold_layne]

As someone who writes songs, I really couldnt live with myself if I only wrote 5 songs per year. I'd wonder if I had anything to say. Take someone like Johnny Cash though. His back catalogue is littered with crap...I mean whole albums of absolute garbage. But he left behind a huge body of work and we get a chance to see him as a complete human being. Who knows what great songs we wouldnt have heard if he had censored himself more. I don't think its really about perfection. Does anybody know of any artist who puts out perfect albums every 3 or 4 years, never mind every 1 or 2? If I'm going to release something imperfect, I'd rather do it sooner than later so I can get to work on something new. I think at heart everyone should have ambitions of being great at what they do. And when the dust settles, you'll find that the most important and greatest artists were prolific. Trust me when I say 20 years from now Jeff Buckley will be all but forgotten, but Elliott's stature will grow. To be truly appreciated, you must leave much to be appreciated.

[donnyidk]

i'd say the grain of the idea behind it is "if you can't get enough ideas to fill 20 songs (even if all those ideas eventually only make up one song) then you're not really serious about it"

i agree that it seems to encourage quantity over quality but i think that's really because it's just badly phrased. what i read it as is "you have to do a certain level of work before you can be taken seriously; if you're not reaching that level, you're not really serious." and i think that's fair enough no?


(also however i'd say "only enough ideas to fill 20 pop songs!? in a whole year!? really? that's not a lot. at all.)

[ilovemusic]

i know what you're saying but...you CAN measure a singer/songwriters songs. there are many ways such as- lyrics, rythm, the way its sung, instruments, and most importantly song Meanings.

[edfuller]

have you considered going to the last plane to jakarta message board and discussing it with Mr. Darnielle?

[arnold_layne]

i know what you're saying but...you CAN measure a singer/songwriters songs. there are many ways such as- lyrics, rythm, the way its sung, instruments, and most importantly song Meanings.

I'm not sure how you would measure the things you're talking about, other than in a way that pits one song against another in purely metric terms. Like that card game where two kinds of tanks battle against one another and you have to pick the category:

Number of lyrics: 128
Type of rhythm: 3/4
Number of instruments: 7
Number of different meanings: 3

At the end of the day though, that wouldnt tell us anything about how good a song was, because thats purely a subjective thing.

[meepmeep]

hank williams wrote a song a day

i think that approach makes it likely you will hone your craft and hit quite a few high marks

on the other hand chris bell wrote less frequently. out of his all of his works, maybe 2 or 3 are great songs. however, they are really great songs. :yes:

on another (third) hand, the beatles wrote a huge amount of songs in a short amount of time (50-60 songs) in their early period. apparently they drew from that well up until the end of their career.

there is no formula, imo.

[JacksonAlbracht]

The best songwriters are humble.

[runnersdialzero]

have you considered going to the last plane to jakarta message board and discussing it with Mr. Darnielle?

Wow, I didn't know this was possible. :D

In reality, it's just a difference of opinions. I'm not gonna change his mind and he's not gonna change mine, you know? But maybe to hear him elaborate more, that'd be cool.

Although if I had the chance to talk to him, I'd tell him that Galesburg, IL is a total fucking shithole and he must have been high when he wrote "Weekend in Western Illinois". A nice way of explaining the midwest, sure, but if I lived in Galesburg specifically I'd kill myself because the town is so depressing.

[runnersdialzero]

The best songwriters are humble.

How so?

Definitely not disagreeing with you, just wanting to hear more.

[ilovemusic]

I'm not sure how you would measure the things you're talking about, other than in a way that pits one song against another in purely metric terms. Like that card game where two kinds of tanks battle against one another and you have to pick the category:

Number of lyrics: 128
Type of rhythm: 3/4
Number of instruments: 7
Number of different meanings: 3

At the end of the day though, that wouldnt tell us anything about how good a song was, because thats purely a subjective thing.
:stupid:

that was mildly amusing...i dont know why you thought i was talking about numbers though lyrics as in rhymes, rythm as in beats,riffs,etc, instruments an in how well they are played and what sound is produced, and song meanings as in- what is the composer trying to express. its like im talking to a baby haha:D

[arnold_layne]

:stupid:

that was mildly amusing...i dont know why you thought i was talking about numbers though lyrics as in rhymes, rythm as in beats,riffs,etc, instruments an in how well they are played and what sound is produced, and song meanings as in- what is the composer trying to express. its like im talking to a baby haha:D

Goo goo ga ga....how do you measure lyrics? By how many rhymes they use? Why is that different from measuring how many words are used?It seems rather arbitrary and has no relation to how good the songwriter is. The rhymes being used may be trite. How well the instruments are being played? I can assure you the average Kenny G album has better playing than any Daniel Johnstone album. So does that mean its better? How do you know what the composer is trying to express? What if they never talked about it?Can you really tell if they succeeded?I don't think you've really thought this through.

[JacksonAlbracht]

How so?

Definitely not disagreeing with you, just wanting to hear more.

Well I can only speak for the people I consider to be the best songwriters. I'm into Elliott Smith, The Beatles, Andrew Bird, of Montreal, the Beach Boys and lots of other stuff everyone here is fond of. All of them, whether classically trained or learned intuitively, have a pretty solid grasp of how harmony (music in its most basic form) operates. And see, I think when you get to a certain level of musical proficiency you begin to recognize that rock/pop/folk songwriting occupies only a small space of what is encompassed by music. I mean, music only exists the way it does because of the circumstances that caused us to develop ears as well as communication... so like harmony as we know it is god above all composers... Just as a painter can never claim to be more inspiring or important than color itself, someone who truly appreciates music will recognize that there is an element to their craft that is eternal and does not belong to any individual artist. That's my philosophy... Oh, except for Elliott Smith. He constantly bragged about his abilities as a guitar player and lyricist.

[arnold_layne]

All the great songwriters were egotistical nutcases.

[donnyidk]

All the great songwriters liked putting jelly down their pants.

[arnold_layne]

All the great songwriters worshipped Baphomet.

[robot hand]

All the great songwriters were egotistical nutcases.

were?

[robot hand]

Oh, except for Elliott Smith. He constantly bragged about his abilities as a guitar player and lyricist.

i can picture him yelling "in your face!" at friends after he wrote say yes! :-D:yes:

[JacksonAlbracht]

i can picture him yelling "in your face!" at friends after he wrote say yes! :-D:yes:

I heard he learned to play Angeles with one hand so as to leave the other one free to make vulgar gestures at people who had just been let out of church on Sunday. YEP!