Corgan's Epics

[XenonDreams]

Haven't seen a thread to this effect post-zeitgeist, so if United States really yanks your crank, here's your chance. If there was an epic on TFE, I guess thats really embarrassing, but I usually stopped listening after Walking Shade, sorry. I guess nothing on Gish really qualifies. Apparently Rhinoceros of all things has the longest duration. TAFH will get the spot I alloted for it Gish then. If you really think Snail deserves it, sorry. Nothing and Everything is epic and better and deserves a spot too. Cry me a river.

Porcelina gets my vote.

[Eye]

I think Thru The Eyes of Ruby should be on there instead of XYU. Maybe XYU is longer, I don't remember, but Ruby definitely feels more like an epic.

[Peter]

seriously, porcelina.

[XenonDreams]

I think Thru The Eyes of Ruby should be on there instead of XYU. Maybe XYU is longer, I don't remember, but Ruby definitely feels more like an epic.

a good point, but then you've gotta kick soma into the mix too. and then things get out of hand. because hummer kinda blows. NEVER FORGET! (that was Blamo's own 9/11). don't act like you don't know what i'm talking about.

[XenonDreams]

also i don't get the time stamps on posts. why does blamo think i'm somewhere in the pacific ocean? i suppose it'd be 11:22pm in California if it weren't DLST, but cripes, do I not do enough to defend America on the philosophy board?

God hates you, blamo timestamp.

[Rotting Apples]

It's hard to choose (really hard to choose), but I think I'm going to have to go with Porcelina as well (had Ruby been on there, though, it would have gotten my vote.)

[thisfoolulovesomehow]

isnt windowpaine really long?

[Atomsk Iscariot]

isnt windowpaine really long?

At the very least, it's more epic than Rhinoceros.

[Atomsk Iscariot]

Oh, also, Porcelina.

[CrestfallenAlex]

Porcelina! (would have voted for Ruby as well)

[Daysleeper]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OMQEZx9PqSo

That is all

:yes:

[s0ss]

Great video.

Sweeny and Billy is great combination. Zwan could have done without Paz and Pajo.

[The Sellout]

Where's Ruby? It's not really long, but it is pretty epic

[carolupus]

I love both TAFH and Porcelina. so I voted for TAFH, cause Porcelina already has enough votes ;)

[gaze]

STARLA!!! Darla

[Cool As Ice Cream]

For Zeitgeist, I prefer Gossamer over United States.

[Liam-M]

i voted for martha cause ruby wasnt there

[Jackal]

XYU, it's crazy, erotic, angry, hard. :heart:

United States-I really like this too.

[Steven]

I went with Porcelina, even though had Ruby been on there I would've voted for it. It's my favorite song of all-time.

I almost went with For Martha. That song is so beautiful.

[Joliet's Green Onions]

porcelina every day of the week!

[WorldView]

ep·ic [ep-ik]

1. noting or pertaining to a long poetic composition, usually centered upon a hero, in which a series of great achievements or events is narrated in elevated style: Homer's Iliad is an epic poem.
2. resembling or suggesting such poetry: an epic novel on the founding of the country.
3. heroic; majestic; impressively great: the epic events of the war.
4. of unusually great size or extent: a crime wave of epic proportions.
5. Porcelina of the Vast Oceans, a Smashing Pumpkins song.

[mc_festus]

wow, i woulda figured starla would've won out by a large margin...meh, i voted for it at least

[Peter]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OMQEZx9PqSo

That is all

:yes:

jimmy is a fucking monster.

[In Dust and Ashes]

I think Porcelina is probably the epitome of epic, so I'll vote for that. But through the eyes of ruby is second.

[tender branson]

i don't agree with the premise.

porcelina is too boring to be compared to the rest. the aeroplane flies high remains the same throughout. glass and the ghost children is a different sort of creature from the rest. silverfuck changed every day. x.y.u. keeps the same tone throughout. starla is a long builder, just like porcelina, except it's more interesting. and united states is about a week old.

and that leaves you with for martha, thru the eyes of ruby and mary star of the sea. for martha and thru the eyes of ruby both have pianos and heavy guitars later on. mary star of the sea is two songs tacked together with a long jam at the end and in the middle. and so since those are the only epics left, i'm voting for hummer. wait, hummer's not there. oh well.

[Wayne Arnold]

For Martha, of course.

[IAmNotOne]

I'm surprised that no one has shown any love for "Glass and the Ghost Children". That's what I think of when I think Pumpkins epic.

[In Dust and Ashes]

I'm surprised that no one has shown any love for "Glass and the Ghost Children". That's what I think of when I think Pumpkins epic.

That song reminds me of a cheap sci-fi flick. :no:

[Eye]

Mary Star of the Sea-two songs tacked together? I know they combine Jesus I and Mary Star of the Sea on the album, but it is still an epic in its own right. Mary Star of the Sea would be pretty high up there for me in terms of epics but Ruby is by far my favorite epic.

[adr150]

I love ruby to death and its definitely one of my favorite songs but ive never considered it an epic possibly because there really isnt any kick ass guitar solo. oh and porcelina doesn't stay the same throughout at all. it ebbs and flows (like the sea) and kicks all the other options ass (mainly united states, which is boring as balls)

[Eye]

I like Porcelina too, but lyrically I like Ruby better. There is still a lot of ups and downs in Ruby like most good epics, although I admit it doesn't go really low like how Porcelina starts.

For Martha is also very beautiful song and great epic. A fitting tribute to his mother. I know that he wrote the solo for it a few years earlier (as it appears on one of the MCIS demo sessions) but I feel like it fits so perfectly in with the rest of the song, like the two parts of the song were meant to go together. I remember Billy remarking in an interview that for the most Adore didn't really have any solos in it, but that near the end with For Martha, that the band gives everyone a little Pumpkins or something that. Using a previously unused solo from the MCIS era is almost a nod to an earlier time in the band. But I am just overanalyzing things now ;).

[JasonTH79]

My top 3 are:
1. Aeroplane Flies High
2. XYU
3. United States

[CrestfallenAlex]

porcelina . . . ebbs and flows (like the sea)

:lol: :yes:

[Jackal]

porcelina gets boring

[bigsteve]

Has to be Starla for me. It has sooo much energy and it builds steadily for so long into something indescribable. It cannot be messed with.

[tbends]

Porcelina

[inthearmsofsleep]

"For Martha" almost doesn't count as an epic but it's
sooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
beautiful. So it gets my vote.

[Cool As Ice Cream]

hey someone added thru the eyes of ruby afterwards hey hey now

[Count_Duckula]

FOR MARTHA

The way it starts so modest, builds to guitar crescendo, and then slowly ebbs away again.... tis amazing

[Atomsk Iscariot]

Sweeny and Billy is great combination. Zwan could have done without Paz and Pajo.

Fuck yeah. Pajo's a great guitarist, but as soon as they moved him from bass he just mostly stood around and played parts no one could hear. Sweeney and Billy had a fucking great chemistry, though.

[Dovecoat]

Fuck yeah. Pajo's a great guitarist, but as soon as they moved him from bass he just mostly stood around and played parts no one could hear. Sweeney and Billy had a fucking great chemistry, though.

I actually like Mr. Pajo OK. Matt Sweeney is way better, though.

And I LOVE Paz. She's so pretty in a such an awkward/weird way. And she's fairly talented... not brilliant, but talented. And isn't she working with Entrance or Devendra Banhart or one of those other bearded hippies now?

[CrestfallenAlex]

Since this has almost turned into a Zwan appreciation thread, I will post this here instead of being annoying and creating a new thread.

I have like three Zwan concerts and MSOTS, and I would like to, in some capacity, get ahold of all/most of the songs Zwan released/played so I can hear some of the great stuff people talk about when they mention how good the non-MSOTS songs are, beyond Chrysanthemum and What Have I Done. Does anyone have advice on the best way for me to go about this?A friend of mine back in the day mentioned that he had a bootleg CD set that was basically just a compliation of all the songs, and while that may not be as
1337 as having every concert or whatever, I would love to get ahold of something like that, via B+P or whatever. I'm ashamed to say that I'm not very well-versed in computer stuff, and downloading torrents or whatever has always confused me. Anyway.

[Evil Meanie]

I don't feel that any answer that isn't "For Martha" should even be legal.

[Atomsk Iscariot]

A friend of mine back in the day mentioned that he had a bootleg CD set that was basically just a compliation of all the songs, and while that may not be as
1337 as having every concert or whatever, I would love to get ahold of something like that, via B+P or whatever. I'm ashamed to say that I'm not very well-versed in computer stuff, and downloading torrents or whatever has always confused me. Anyway.

There were a few comps on ozphoria, but it's since disappeared off the face of the internet.

[Atomsk Iscariot]

Apparently ozphoria still exists, I just had an old link in my bookmarks.

http://www.ozphoria.com/media.php

This has the "True Poets of Zwan" collection, which has various recordings of sweet-ass songs that they played through 2001-2002, as well as the two hideout sessions, making my last post irrelevant, so I'll delete it.

[CrestfallenAlex]

Thanks!

What's up with that band with the Chinese(?) characters for song titles?

[Thraxeh]

Hummer ?

what about hummer you idiot

[Atomsk Iscariot]

Thanks!

What's up with that band with the Chinese(?) characters for song titles?

Japanese! Eastern Youth is a band that's recently gotten a bit of a following in the U.S., since they've toured with Cursive quite a bit and have even released a split EP with them. They're a pretty fantastic punk band.

[CrestfallenAlex]

Ha, they have a very self-aware name.

Do you know Mong Hang?

[Bloodstained Jar]

Why isn't Hummer a choice? That'd be my vote. It's much more epic than a lot of these songs, even if it's not quite as long.

[Cheryl K]

Everyone forgets Drown. :cry:

[Drevpile]

porcelina ... and ruby ... and gossamer

[CrestfallenAlex]

Maybe I don't understand what qualifies as "epic." Hummer and Drown don't seem at all fitting to me. Ruby, Porcelina, Silverfuck, GatGC, MSOTS, United States all strike me as obvious qualifiers. Is my definition of epic too narrow?

[Bloodstained Jar]

Maybe I don't understand what qualifies as "epic." Hummer and Drown don't seem at all fitting to me. Ruby, Porcelina, Silverfuck, GatGC, MSOTS, United States all strike me as obvious qualifiers. Is my definition of epic too narrow?

I would agree that Drown isn't epic. It just has a long outro that was probably the result of Billy screwing around with feedback in the studio. Nothing wrong with that of course... it's a great song but I don't think it classifies as an epic.

Hummer is a different story. A song that moves through a number of interesting movements, some soft and delicate while others are loud and bombastic. There are essentially 2 signature rock riffs from this one and two phenomenal guitar solos. Also, the lack of a repetitive chorus sets it apart from other tracks. Probably Corgan's best use of dynamics. If Ruby deserves to be considered epic, then Hummer definitely should be in this list too.

As for some of the others... I personally don't fine Glass and the Ghost Children to be nearly as epic as Billy wanted it to be... Really, it just feels like 2 short songs (neither of which sound complete) strung together by a weird interlude that was interesting for about a minute but got irritating really quick.

I'd also nominate Soma as an epic. Again, a perfect use of dynamics as BC/JC(and James too, since he got a writing credit) begin what appears to be the softest song on the album and gradually build to an amazing crescendo. I have this theory that every important rock band has a "Stairway to Heaven" song. If that's true, then Soma is undoubtedly the SP Stairway.

[CrestfallenAlex]

That was an awesome post. I get what you mean about Hummer and am actually listening to it in a different light right now. (also, i never realized before that it is 7 minutes long...it sure doesn't feel like it)

As for Soma being epic? HELL yes.

[Bloodstained Jar]

That was an awesome post. I get what you mean about Hummer and am actually listening to it in a different light right now. (also, i never realized before that it is 7 minutes long...it sure doesn't feel like it)

As for Soma being epic? HELL yes.

Thanks for the compliment. Yeah, Hummer just flies by because it's so great. The first solo (the distorted one) is probably my favorite SP guitar solo of all time. So much feeling. Makes me all happy inside, haha. And Soma is definitely epic. Shows what a master of epic material Billy can be when he tries. Siamese Dream had THREE epic songs on it if you also count Silverfuck. Most bands are lucky if they can pull off one in the entire span of their career.

[CrestfallenAlex]

Now I am forced to try to think of if my other favorite bands have any epics at ALL, since this thread has made me realize that the epics are almost exclusively my favorites from the Pumpkins.

Uh...I'm sure NIN has *some*? The Great Below has an epic "feel" to me, but I don't know if it's long enough.

[Drevpile]

I would agree that Drown isn't epic. It just has a long outro that was probably the result of Billy screwing around with feedback in the studio. Nothing wrong with that of course... it's a great song but I don't think it classifies as an epic.


An Epic is an extended narrative in "elevated or dignified" language... thus and epic by Pumpkins standards is kind of hard to define… but I have a idea ! : Conceptually and historically the Pumpkins are an “Epic” band - Corgans' "narrative" stretches across albums and from certain songs to another. Within individual songs (applying the afore mentioned parameters) - you could quite easily define Drown as epic… You have to compare within the boundaries of the Pumpkins music what exactly and epic is. None of their songs would be considered epic if compared to, say, classical music; Thusly I thinks any song roughly around and above the 7 minute mark in Pumpkins world is an epic.

Just a theory.

[CrestfallenAlex]

I dunno, Drown just has literally *none* of the grandeur of the other songs we're considering epics.

Good tune, but...

[CrestfallenAlex]

Update: "The Great Below" is 5 min long so no go. I think "Hurt" should count as the NIN epic.

[Drevpile]

I dunno, Drown just has literally *none* of the grandeur of the other songs we're considering epics.

Good tune, but...


being "epic" is not the same as being "grandiose" ...

[Cheryl K]

Well geez fine guyz. :cry:

[eme]

I had to go with For Martha...it's the only way really...

[Drevpile]

Well geez fine guyz. :cry:

... you could quite easily define Drown as epic...
^
:drums:

[Cheryl K]

^
:drums:

:heart:

[Drevpile]

;)

[Cheryl K]

:spflag:

[Bloodstained Jar]

Update: "The Great Below" is 5 min long so no go. I think "Hurt" should count as the NIN epic.

Hmm... NIN is one of those acts that I think puts together epic albums rather than individual songs. If you take an album like The Downward Spiral and look at each song individually, the only one that I personally count as an epic would be Ruiner. But if you look at the album as a whole... the way it moves along and appears to tell a story of one man's decent into hell, I think you could view it as an epic. Most of the songs on their own are fairly short and many only center around one specific idea, but when you put them altogether, it becomes something else entirely.

Mellon Collie could be viewed this way, I think. Whereas Siamese Dream had (arguably) three songs of epic proportions, there are notably less guitar solos on Mellon Collie and many of the songs are simpler. The way I figure, since Billy was making a double album, he was looking at the big picture more than the small one.

[CrestfallenAlex]

Hmm... NIN is one of those acts that I think puts together epic albums rather than individual songs. If you take an album like The Downward Spiral and look at each song individually, the only one that I personally count as an epic would be Ruiner. But if you look at the album as a whole... the way it moves along and appears to tell a story of one man's decent into hell, I think you could view it as an epic. Most of the songs on their own are fairly short and many only center around one specific idea, but when you put them altogether, it becomes something else entirely.

Mellon Collie could be viewed this way, I think. Whereas Siamese Dream had (arguably) three songs of epic proportions, there are notably less guitar solos on Mellon Collie and many of the songs are simpler. The way I figure, since Billy was making a double album, he was looking at the big picture more than the small one.


:yes:

I listened to Hurt after I posted that and it actually kind of has the same problem some people were saying Drown has, which is that the song actually isn't really as long as the track time suggests, since it sort of just ends up degenerating into noodling/feedback/whatever you want to call it.

I haven't been able to spend a proper amount of time with Year Zero yet. Are you digging it?

[Bloodstained Jar]

I like Year Zero. Musically, I think it's not Trent's best work but I do feel that its one of the boldest politically charged albums to ever be released. I give Trent a lot of credit for diving headfirst into the political turmoil the U.S. is in and not holding anything back. Although I still think that, sound-wise, it's one of his weaker efforts... it seems like he's relying a bit too much on sound effects rather than melodies and harmonies. However, it's still a worthy album. It just gets old a bit faster than Downward Spiral or The Fragile (IMO).

[Drevpile]

so you guys are talking about the soundscapes of NIN (year zero) but don't think Drown is an epic - ... i don't quite understand...
... Drown... sort of just ends up degenerating into noodling/feedback/whatever you want to call it...


?

[Bloodstained Jar]

so you guys are talking about the soundscapes of NIN (year zero) but don't think Drown is an epic - ... i don't quite understand...

?

Oh, I wasn't referring to Year Zero's "epic" status... just commenting on whether or not I liked the album. I wouldn't really call any of the individual songs on that CD "epic" but I would say that the album definitely is, as a whole because it tells a story and it moves through several different themes with different characters as the voices of various songs.

[CrestfallenAlex]

so you guys are talking about the soundscapes of NIN (year zero) but don't think Drown is an epic - ... i don't quite understand...

?

Ha, PWNED.

I take back what I said about the crap at the end of Drown--I listened to it again and had been misremembering.

But, still. It's like the same length as 1979. I don't see what you guys are talking about.

[Wayne Arnold]

Ha, PWNED.

I take back what I said about the crap at the end of Drown--I listened to it again and had been misremembering.

But, still. It's like the same length as 1979. I don't see what you guys are talking about.


I think everyone is talking about the real version. The one that's 8 minutes long.

[Tobias]

ruby!

[Dovecoat]

I think everyone is talking about the real version. The one that's 8 minutes long.

7:59 of which are feedback.

[Bloodstained Jar]

I don't understand how you can call Drown and epic but not Hummer. Seriously, it's what? 30 seconds longer?

[x-tine]

Absolutely without a doubt Starla. Starla is one of my top 3 SP songs EVER and holds so much of an emotional connection for me that I would be betraying myself to even think of voting otherwise. What other song can literally make you feel like your FLYING for ten minutes. Which reminds me: Best driving song ever.